Ughh on every street

[sean c]

Party 2/4. Villian unknown hasn't been out of line during the short time i have been at the table.

Pre flop: folds to late EP/early MP player who open raises, folds to me in the BB and i call with 10 /images/graemlins/spade.gif9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif.

Flop(2 players 4.5sb): Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gifJ /images/graemlins/spade.gif9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
I check/raise and villian calls.

Turn(2 players 4.25bb): 2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif
I bet and villian calls.

River(2 players 6.25bb): 2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
I check, villian bets and i fold /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[milesdyson]

here's one where i see no point in the flop c/r.

he's not open raising super light here, and there are no hands he will ever fold to your flop check raise other than maybe 88/77 (which you beat anyway).

look:
AA - nope
KK - nope
QQ - you get owned
JJ - you get owned
TT - surely not folding turn/river, so you need to spend mucho dinero to get him out
99 - you get owned
AK - gutshot and overcards
AQ - top pair
AJ - middle pair, he will call you down
AT - oesd and an overcard
KQ - top pair
KJ - same as AJ
KT - you get owned

just draw to your hand. flop check raises against preflop raisers have their place. this is not one of them.

[sean c]

Nice job Miles yeah the flop c/r pretty much sucked i was thinking of my hand and not villian's range when i did it which is clearly wrong. All i really did was open myself up to a turn raise that i would be forced to call. Can i make a crying call on this river?

[milesdyson]

no, that check fold looks money

[Shillx]

Meh our equity against the range you outline is over 43%, and a lot of the hands in that list can be discounted or thrown out the way the hand played (obviously we don't know this when we check/raise, but it is important for the river play). Surely he isn't going to play a set or KT like this. I don't mind a check/raise or a check/call on this flop. I don't feel like it is a mistake at all to check/raise in this spot a decent % of the time.

You have to check/call this river IMO the way this hand played out. Even against Myles range, you still have about 24% equity and have a call if he will bet them all on the end.

[SCfuji]

hey sean.

if you build a pot with that checkraise i dont like giving it up on the river bro, it is just too weak. that said the alternate line that miles suggested is better, especially if your line is to put more money into the hand earlier and quit on fifth.

[milesdyson]

the way i see it is that we have practically no fold equity, and our flop check raise forces us to lead the turn. we forgo the opportunity to check raise later by taking the lead. we charge ourselves dearly when behind and he raises the turn. we allow him to simply call down and force us to make a decision on the river (it's not a call because he's not going to bet all of his hands, but it's still a decision).

give me T9 on J98 flop and i'll check raise all day. the fact that the 8 is a Q makes it ugly imo.

[sean c]

[ QUOTE ]
hey sean.

if you build a pot with that checkraise i dont like giving it up on the river bro, it is just too weak. that said the alternate line that miles suggested is better, especially if your line is to put more money into the hand earlier and quit on fifth.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks Fuji so you suggest i check/call the river?

[milesdyson]

if you want to show this down i think you should bet the river. betting is -EV for sure, but check/calling is more -EV. there just isn't much for him to bluff here.

[sean c]

[ QUOTE ]
Meh our equity against the range you outline is over 43%, and a lot of the hands in that list can be discounted or thrown out the way the hand played (obviously we don't know this when we check/raise, but it is important for the river play). Surely he isn't going to play a set or KT like this. I don't mind a check/raise or a check/call on this flop. I don't feel like it is a mistake at all to check/raise in this spot a decent % of the time.

You have to check/call this river IMO the way this hand played out. Even against Myles range, you still have about 24% equity and have a call if he will bet them all on the end.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Shillx thanks i never would have guessed i had anywhere near that much equity against Miles range which i think is spot on. How did you come up with that number?

[Shillx]

Magic (http://www.pokerstove.com/)

[SCfuji]

im not too happy with how it turned out, but yeah i do.

[SCfuji]

i think there is equally not as much for him to bluff here but id rather give that small chance of bluffing to him, plus he might check behind. i do like your line and reasoning too maybe somebody else can add.

Against a UTG raise, I like check/call, check/call, check/fold.

Regardless of what pokerstove tells me, I don't think a worse hand bets this river.

Against an MP,LP raiser:
I like check/call, check/raise, bet/fold.

[sean c]

[ QUOTE ]
Against an MP,LP raiser:
I like check/call, check/raise, bet/fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Kwaz please explain why you like this line against a mid to late position open raise.

A LP open raiser is much more likely to hold a better hand that I have a hope of folding. Getting him to fold A9, K9 or JT to a c/r river bet combo is worth the risk.

I have such a small equity deficit with my Str8flush draw it only has to work a small percentage of the time.

ie. I have ~35% equity putting in 50%. Deficit = 15%
If I get 3bet I cost myself an extra 2 bets x 15%deficit = .3BB.

I cost myself .3BB to possibly win a 6BB pot.
As you can see it doesn't have to work very often at all to be profitable.

Against an UTG raiser, I am much more likely to be 3bet for no benefit and he is much more likely to hold a hand I have no chance of folding.


Plus checkraising the turn is fun /images/graemlins/grin.gif