Funny NLHE Tournament

[ElSapo]

So it's $5+1 no limit. These things are only profitable if you finish first, really, and even then "profitable" is a stretch. Third makes a grand total of $4, 2nd gets a net of $9 and first makes $19. But they're fun, and that's why I like them.

Anyways, I don't play a hand for a while. We're into the second level of blinds, I get AJs and win. Two hands later, AKo, an ace flops. Then JJ, I move in on the flop and take it. Chip leader, and feeling good. A few hands later, AA and I go all in preflop, announcing I'm on tilt. No one calls and I flash the aces. I think I made someone muck a big hand b/c they were kind of laughing about it, if you can do that online. Three hands later I get QQ. I raise, and get one caller. Flop is J-high and he starts thinking about it. And thinking. I say "move in, I'll call you." I would have. Suddenly it turns out he's disconnected. He's all in, the cards get dealt out, another Jack on the end and his J9o or something was good. I wasn't sure whether to be pissed or not. If he'd checked, I was going to hit him with a big raise. No idea if he would have called. But he timed out, and I thought at the time it might have been intentional.

Anyways, the cards mostly dried up for a while. We get down to 4 or 5 people, and the guy with the Jack is still in it, though he's being blinded down. Which means if it gets to the blind, and the SB completes, the other disconnected guy -auto folds-. Important thing to know, right? But the guy on his right didn't notice, and so was playing normally. He should complete every time, and just get the BB. But he didn't. And the result was, after a few people busted out, that the disconnected guy was suddenly in third. I was chip leader with half the chips or so and the other guy was close. Disconnect guy had like 20.

Anyways, we couldn't get him out. Every time he was BB, he'd win. 87 made a straight, 48 made two pair, his A5 held up for ace high. Granted, 20 chips only made it to 120, but it was pretty damn funny. Anyways, DisconnectGuy is in the BB and I get 66. Flop is A6Q, some betting, it ends up A6QT7 or something and I go all in.

Other guy thinks. And thinks. And suddenly I realize the problem

"Don't call!"

If he calls and loses, disconnect guy suddenly makes 2nd place. Which, even as someone trying to win, I have to admit is shitty.

He says "you have it?"

I say "I have 66. I'll show."

He almost times out, and finally folds. I flash the cards, he says "thanks, I had two pair." I say, " we gotta get this guy out."

Two hands later I call with K3h. Flop is King-high, and I think I have the best hand. Tryng to get out disconnect man, I say, "K3h." And we check it down. He had…Big Slick.

One good turn deserves another…

DisconnectGuy finally did go out, and I finally won the damn thing.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Careful. If disconnect guy is trying to log back on and can see your chat, he's got you nailed on collusion.

[Copernicus]

Sorry, but I think that is out and out collusion. If you think you made a strategic mistake going all in, live with it. If the other guy was considering calling you cheated disconnect guy (probably an innocent disconnect) out of 2d place money..period. In a B&M you would have been reprimanded at least. the anonymity of online poker giveslicense for a lot of bush league moves and this is one of the worst Ive seen. If I were disconnect guy or a 4th player at the table (and it was a site with actual customer service) the floorperson would have heard from me.

Another one that is becoming more prevalent, and isnt quite as bad but still pi$$es me off in late rounds is folds "out of turn". Last night UTG folds when he could have checked in a three handed situation, giving the SB/button what could be critical information in his decision to complete or raise and challenge my (short stack) BB. Collusion? probably not, since that could be done by phone much more easily. Maybe the guy just had to take a pee, but it still impaired my position.

[ElSapo]

I thought this would come up.

Yes, I agree with you, it wasn't appropriate and I probably should not have done it. But at the time, it just seemed wrong for the guy to go out when DisconnectedGuy had been blinding off for 30 minutes and had 50 chips, when we had the rest.

Does that make the play right? No, I guess not. Was it collusion? I guess, honestly, it was, though not the kind usually thought of.

In my opinion, the guy should be happy to make 3rd after getting disconnected. And yes, I imagine the disconnect actually was an accident, since he stayed disconnected. I probably should have just let the guy call or fold as he wanted to.

Nice point.

[ElSapo]

First, I agree with you on my play. It was inappropriate, though I didn't see it that way at the time.

Second, I don't think folding out of turn was wrong, in your example. It was his turn to act, he chose to fold.

The two situations are entirely different, I think.

[Prickly Pete]

The folds to a check always kill me. And I see that once every few tourneys. And I'd bet most aren't leaving their PC when they do it.

I had a guy the other night talking about his hand and having no idea he was possibly affecting the outcome of the hand (I wasn't in the hand) Here's what happened approximately:

3 call preflop. Flop is QJx rainbow. Player A bets his QJ, 2 calls.

Turn is K. Player A bets, 2 calls

River is A. Player A checks and Player B (AK) bets strong. While Player C (who also has AK) is thinking, Player A starts berating these guys for calling his QJ 2 pair on the flop. Sure enough, Player C calls, Player A folds and A & B split the pot.

I told A that B should be pissed that he's giving info that'll help C call. He didn't get it at all. Oh well, at least I'm glad theres's a moron at my table.

[ElSapo]

At the time I posted this, it just seemed like a funny thing. In some respects, it still seems kind of funny. But a couple of posters made me think about it another way, and I actually agree that (a) moving all in was, from a strategic standpoint, not a good idea; (b) telling him not to call was actually wrong.

Anyways, post away as you will. But I'm fairly convinced I was in the wrong here.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

We all need to maintain the integrity of the game. I know it may seem different, but being disconnected, is substantively no different from voluntarily folding all your hands except the blinds, or, from a B&M perspective, being blinded off because you're in the men's room with a sudden attack of Montezuma's Revenge. It's all the same. The chips left at the table are backed by the player's money, and he has the right to know that while he's away. others won't conspire to take those chips.

It sounds harsh, but I think you get it. besides, if you think about it, you *want* the bigger stack to call you since it increases your chance of winning.

Once again, pure self-interest leads to the ethically correct decision.

[ElSapo]

Huh.

I'm not sure I entirely understand the rules about what is ok to say, and what isn't.

Examples:

--If I fold and say, "well, my AK is no good" that would be wrong. I'm out of the hand and talking about what I held.

--I'm in the hand with AA. I raise and say, "I have the aces, someone call." This doesn't strike me as wrong, I could just as easily be lying.

The separating factor, for me, is if you're in the hand or not. Now, I don't actually know the rules, so I'd be curious to hear what they are.

In your example, if QJ starts ranting but is still in the hand, I imagine it's not great poker and poor form but is it against the rules?

I've also wondered why it's not allowed in a tournament to flip up your cards...

El Sapo

[Prickly Pete]

You raise a good point El Sapo. In my case, the guy was still in the hand. But it was pretty obvious to me that the guy was being legit when he ranted. But you're right, if he was holding the nut 10, it could've been a beautiful bluff. Alas, he was just an idiot. /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

[cferejohn]

You mean flip them up after someone has bet and you are trying to decide whether to call (to judge his reaction)? That really seems like an angle shoot to me. Also, many people would automatically consider this a fold and would flip up their cards too, resulting in a big argument. Easier to just say 'don't show your cards until action is done'.

[FeliciaLee]

When I was accused of cheating, I went and read all of the TDA rules again, just to be sure I was right (I was). I also read all of Stars tourney rules, which virtually mimicked the TDA rules, and sometimes quoted them verbatim.

I don't know about Party, I haven't read their tourney rules in-depth.

If you want a really good handle on what is appropriate and what is not, you can read the TDA rules. They are posted, in full, at pokerforum.com and many other websites.

For instance, back in '73, it was not considered angle shooting to expose a hand before being all-in head's up (or multi-way, if only one person has chips left). Puggy Pearson did it in the WSOP, to gauge the reaction that Jack Strauss would have seeing his two pair. It worked, and Puggy won the hand.

This is considered angle shooting these days, and the hand would be immediately declared dead.

The same goes for talking about a hand while involved in it. Even if you are just talking trash. It doesn't matter what the motive is, if you talk about a hand, your hand is dead and you will probably get a penalty.

This is no rule, however, about talking about a hand after it is complete. You are allowed to talk about it at the table, to a railbird, in private, etc. Even online, there is NO rule about discussing hands that are completed. They cannot be discussed in any way during the hand. I see this a lot at Stars. Someone bets on the flop, bets pretty hard. Another player comes over the top all-in. The first bettor asks, "What do you have?" He knows it's just trash talking. We know it's just talk, but it is still against Stars' tourney rules. I always remind the players of that, so that they don't get kicked out of the tourney. Stars doesn't seem to enforce this rule unless someone complains, but it is still best just to follow the rules and keep everything as fair as possible.

[Bama Boy]

Its always good to know what the rules are. I never realized asking what a guy had (even online!) was against the rules until you mentioned it. Glad I know now.

I think looking back we've all said/done some things that in hindsight were wrong, but we didn't think much of it at the time. At least we can learn from our mistakes.