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Guthrie
12-05-2005, 09:21 PM
Both opponents are unknown and early in the game. I put UTG+1 on a big pair and I wouldn't mind going HU with him, but MP2 is the wildcard.

I lead the flop to see who raises, UTG+1 still looks like a big pair, but MP2 just calls. If he's on a flush draw, and I 3-bet, he'll still have odds to call, even if UTG+1 caps.

If raising here won't push him off a flush draw, and won't make it incorrect for him to call, then is raising the correct action? Or should I assume my kings might hold up and raise anyway?

If he's like the average donk I play, and he already has the flush, he's waiting for the turn to raise. They must get an e-mail about this when they register. Anyway, I just call the flop. Too weak?

I assume UTG+1 will bet again, so I check the turn to see what MP2 does. He raises. Flush? Set? Trips? Bluff?

What do I do now and what should I have done before?

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif. MP2 posts a blind of $1.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 (poster) 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (12.50 SB) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (9.25 BB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, Hero ?
HouseCalls
12-05-2005, 10:10 PM
Preflop /images/graemlins/cool.gif- good
Flop /images/graemlins/frown.gif - This is a situation where you might be beat already and if you are not there are 10 /images/graemlins/spade.gif's on the turn that can cripple your hand. I think a bet here to protect your possibly leading hand is ok but when you get raised - especially with another caller - I'd give this up.
Turn - Even more likely to be beat with flush draw and a pair on the board; you did pick up two out (K's) to a full house but it's not enought to keep going ... fold.
Eeegah
12-05-2005, 10:16 PM
Yeah, MP2 kindof screwed you here. I don't see what he could have had other than a slowplay, and you're only getting 7:1 to boat up when it might get capped on top doesn't make me happy. Sucks, but I think it's a muck.
zuluking
12-05-2005, 10:31 PM
Raise the flop.

Mucking this hand on the turn is tragic.
Aaron W.
12-05-2005, 10:36 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Preflop /images/graemlins/cool.gif- good
Flop /images/graemlins/frown.gif - This is a situation where you might be beat already and if you are not there are 10 /images/graemlins/spade.gif's on the turn that can cripple your hand. I think a bet here to protect your possibly leading hand is ok but when you get raised - especially with another caller - I'd give this up.


[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't a very good analysis. The move from preflop to flop isn't very consistent in terms of suspected hand ranges.
HouseCalls
12-05-2005, 10:37 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Raise the flop. Why?

Mucking this hand on the turn is tragic. Why?

[/ QUOTE ]
To quote the movie Big - "I don't get it" /images/graemlins/confused.gif
zuluking
12-05-2005, 10:41 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Raise the flop. Why?

Mucking this hand on the turn is tragic. Why?

[/ QUOTE ]
To quote the movie Big - "I don't get it" /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

To put it simply...More times than not you are ahead here.
HouseCalls
12-05-2005, 10:54 PM
[ QUOTE ]

To put it simply...More times than not you are ahead here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this more likely to be true ate the 1/2 level. I just moved up to .25/.50 and at least at these levels it seems like the players are almost never that tricky. When I started at these limits - and read posts like this one - I was more aggressive and seemed to lose more often than not. Crappy sample size its true but for those of you who have played both limmits - are the games different in terms of the number of tricky plays or is my experience just sample error?
12-05-2005, 11:01 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Raise the flop.

Mucking this hand on the turn is tragic.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, what he said.

Seems like a surprising amount of people are certain we're seeing AA or AsKs. I think a lot of hands might play it this way. Remember, 99+ are overpairs to this board. and I think AKo with the As is likely playing this pretty fast with two others in the hand. The three /images/graemlins/spade.gifs set up a scary board, mp2 might be trying to take advantage of it. afterall, we all know that flopped flushes wait till the turn to raise, right? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

edit: i forgot: 99+ pairs are consistent with the play from these two PF as well, but not 88, 66, 33, so sets aren't so likely.
@bsolute_luck
12-05-2005, 11:19 PM
i had a similar hand like that the other day. 3-bet the flop. if a LP, ABC player wakes up on a blank on the turn: flush and i fold.
Eeegah
12-06-2005, 12:19 AM
[ QUOTE ]
This isn't a very good analysis. The move from preflop to flop isn't very consistent in terms of suspected hand ranges.

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you put a 3-betting MP2 poster on?
SCfuji
12-06-2005, 12:35 AM
i really wish we had the K of spades in our hand but i showdown my hand unless another spade falls on the river, or an ace.
Aaron W.
12-06-2005, 01:22 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This isn't a very good analysis. The move from preflop to flop isn't very consistent in terms of suspected hand ranges.

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you put a 3-betting MP2 poster on?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not /images/graemlins/spade.gif /images/graemlins/spade.gif or hands that make a set and two pair (not immediately, anyway). I'd give him TT+, AK, AQs, KQs in the absence of information (but leaving the door open for more aggro hands like AQ, AJs, KQ, KJs, QJs, 77+).
12-06-2005, 03:32 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Turn - Even more likely to be beat with flush draw and a pair on the board; you did pick up two out (K's) to a full house but it's not enought to keep going ... fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, what? That 3 changed nothing. What hands can anyone of those two have that contains a 3? If they have quads, then be it but I doubt the would play it this way and to make it short, if we where behind on the flop, we are behind now. If we where ahead on the flop, we are ahead now. That 3 changes nothing.
12-06-2005, 08:00 AM
[ QUOTE ]
3-bet the flop.

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