How Often Do You Donk The Turn Here?

[Jeffage]

5-handed game and I'm in the BB with A /images/graemlins/club.gifQ /images/graemlins/spade.gif. Folded to a decent player who opens in the cutoff. Button and SB fold and I decide to just call (usually 3-bet here). Anyway, flop comes 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif. I check, cutoff bets and I call. The turn is the 10 /images/graemlins/club.gif and I bet.

Jeff

[DeathDonkey]

I can safely say I've never played a hand like this in my life. I will think about what benefits there are but I think you are giving up too much by just calling preflop 5 handed.

-DeathDonkey

[tpir90036]

Hmmm. I like it. It's a bet that looks very honest. Very much like, "hey dude, i check-called with my overs and hit. sorry."

I don't think I play in games where this would work very much though since A-high is calling around 100% of the time.

[DeathDonkey]

Hi tpir,

The problem I have is what happens when he raises? Are we going to give this up every time? If so we really need to go back and start with a new plan as we are just asking to get the pot taken away from us. Also, if he calls with Ace high 100% of the time we are thrilled because we are value betting alot of the time.

-DeathDonkey

[Alex/Mugaaz]

I kind of like this if you know someone is fairly good. I really don't see how can read you for anything but a made hand or maybe a 4flush with some overs. If he is capable of folding I like this.

[BigEndian]

Jeff, this hand feels like it was played this way because of a history we aren't seeing. I don't think I would take a line like this out of the blue.

- Jim

[scrub]

[ QUOTE ]
A-high is calling around 100% of the time.


[/ QUOTE ]

Which is pretty good for our hero the overwhelming majority of the time.

scrub

[Fnord]

My standard line here in short-handed games against aggro opponents is to call pre-flop and check/raise this flop planning to go to the river. Cackle with glee when he tries to put you on a hand.

[Spicymoose]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A-high is calling around 100% of the time.


[/ QUOTE ]

Which is pretty good for our hero the overwhelming majority of the time.

scrub

[/ QUOTE ]

Damn, you beat me to it. I would love it if A high called me 100% of the time.

[Jeffage]

I do this a good bit also, but I feel like this line is becoming so "standard" when someone calls a raise out of the blinds and figures his opponent missed that it is being met with more turn raises by the hands you'd rather see fold. Just an observation...obv this doesn't happen all the time.

Jeff

[mscags]

This is kind of one of those situations that I was talking about. I think this is def a hand that you want to get to showdown with but the real question is how do you do it? Checkraising the flop is always an option, but as you said I think that route gets met with a lot of resistance. Lots of raising on the turn that puts you in tough spots. If I was villian i would fold to your bet here, but usually when I try this move it doesn't work to well for me either. I think I will flop checkraise the highes majority of the time, pull your line some of the time, and just call down some of the time to if I know he likes to keep firing.

I'm not real sure if I like the bet in this situation though because that T seems like a card that could have very easily hit him. What are you doing if he raises you in this spot? I still want to see a showdown as I'm not really convinced you are behind, but its not a fun situation.

What was your reasoning behind not three betting out of the BB? Were you just looking to switch it up or what? This seem like a hand that you probably win easily on the turn if you would have three bet pf. I dunno, just my thoughts, at least I responded this time /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[tpir90036]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A-high is calling around 100% of the time.


[/ QUOTE ]

Which is pretty good for our hero the overwhelming majority of the time.

scrub

[/ QUOTE ]

Damn, you beat me to it. I would love it if A high called me 100% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

I love it too. Just pointing out why I have not yet had the pleasure of trying Jeff's line as a bluff /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Jeffage]

Villian called my turn bet. Then I rivered a queen. I bet and he called...my hand was good. Villian had 99. So, say you 3-bet this preflop, I assume the action is going to go bet-raise-call, check-call and fold the river if it's blank? Or if you just called with the plan to checkraise most flops, the betting goes/check-bet-raise-call, bet-call, you still bet river if it blanks?

Just interested in some thoughts on how you play hands that develop like this since they seem to come up all the time.

Jeff

[BigEndian]

Ugh, wish you hadn't posted results. I think 99% of the posters here would have said to bet the river if it didn't improve you if they hadn't seen you were called by 99 (including myself likely).

Which probably exposes how checking the river on a whiff is a worthy idea. To induce a bluff that is, you're obviously calling regardless.

- Jim

you dont have position and its heads up.. i dont minid the flat call here since you'll be first to act on all of the rounds. i'm not so sure i'd raise this flop, i think on a raggy flop you can hope to spike an A or a Q or get a cheap showdown unless you feel he has something like a small/medium pair.. thats all relative to how you've seen him play though.

but still.. i like the flat call preflop, and the raise the turn.. good thing for you that you spiked the Q. say you dont spike the Q and he comes firing.. then depending on the card that comes you have a decision to make depending on you opponent.

[DeathDonkey]

Jeff,

This seems a bit results oriented to me. I mean we can go further and say since he had 99 you should have checked and folded already somewhere. I'm more interested in what you were doing on a blank river, and more importantly, why.

I never take your line because, even now as I look back on it, I can't figure out if we are value betting or bluffing. And when I don't know that, I make more bad decisions. One of those other lines you mentioned would be more comfortable for me because I would feel like I know where I'm at in the hand depending on how the action went. So you tell me, what was happening on that turn, were you bluffing? Not wanting to give a free card?

Thanks,
DeathDonkey

[AceHigh]

[ QUOTE ]
Just interested in some thoughts on how you play hands that develop like this since they seem to come up all the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the villian is a lot more likely to fold if you check/raise the turn than a donk bet. So if you had a 6 you might want to donk bet and weaker hands check/raise.

[mscags]

I really hate these hands when you are oop. I think they are the toughest for me to play out of all types. My normal line would be to 3 bet preflop and then bet/call his raise, then either check/call or check/fold depending on the turn. I don't see much value in calling the river if you called the turn here unless villian is known to bluff even on the river (which I'm finding out many people will).

If you check raise the flo and then lead the turn and he still calls I think its time to check/fold the river unless the board is very draw heavy and nothing comes in on the river. I think if you checkraise the turn (which is the most risky, but also probably your best chance at getting him to fold something that beats you) and he still calls you, unless the board is very draw heavy, you have to let it go again. If villian can withstand a turn checkrais, he is most likely going to showdown. These hands give me a lot of trouble.

[climber]

so we all know its a normal PF 3-bet but preflop isnt the point here.

When you have jsut called the raise from the BB I do this turn donk a lot whenever the flop is rags and you get a 9, T or J on the turn. As long as your opponent is an OK player I think this is often a pretty decent move--even without a hand with showdown value like your AQo.

If you oopponent is more aggressive postflop and there is a larger cahnce he will raise you then I like the turn donk following the flop call a lot more on a hand without showdown value.

[Tyler Durden]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think I play in games where this would work very much though since A-high is calling around 100% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yea but he's beating almost every Ace high.

[Jeffage]

[ QUOTE ]
So you tell me, what was happening on that turn, were you bluffing? Not wanting to give a free card?



[/ QUOTE ]

A little from column A and a little from column B. I figured I was probably calling so I migh as well bet in case he'll fold and/or in case my ace is better (so I don't give a freebie or potential freebie to KJ or whatever). But...

[ QUOTE ]
I never take your line because, even now as I look back on it, I can't figure out if we are value betting or bluffing. And when I don't know that, I make more bad decisions.

[/ QUOTE ]

This struck me as a good observation and one that sort of sums up the rut I'm in lately - making moves bc they feel right w/o a concrete reason why and then being in a fog later. My instincts are usually correct, but sometimes I still do stuff like this w/o thinking it through and it hurts. Anyone understant what I'm talking about or I'm just an idiot?

Jeff

[gonores]

Jeff,

[ QUOTE ]
I decide to just call (usually 3-bet here). Anyway, flop comes 6 6 4 . I check, cutoff bets and I call. The turn is the 10 and I bet

[/ QUOTE ]

That's hot.

[gonores]

I rarely get to see hands like 99 played in the way you describe, but if I did, I'd probably go the 3-bet preflop, call flop, call turn, fold river approach unless the board was a bit more drawy. I think 99 caps often here PF, and will wait until the turn often if he calls PF. Either way, on this partucular board, I try to grit my teeth and fold on the river unimproved.