A passive set Party 1/2 6-max deepish

[Ghazban]

Villain has been somewhat aggressive postflop when he's been the preflop raiser (which has been extremely rare, he's about 45/4 after 80 hands). He hasn't shown down anything that made me wonder WTF he was doing postflop but he hasn't gotten to showdown much, either.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 max, 6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

MP ($19.10)
CO ($345.20)
Button ($424.55)
Hero ($334.40)
BB ($41.20)
UTG ($195)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif. Hero posts a blind of $1.
UTG calls $2, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to $8</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero (poster) calls $7, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG calls $6.

Flop: ($26) T/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $18</font>, UTG folds, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to $50</font>, Hero calls $32.

I led out here to try and trap some money from UTG if he has anything and to build the pot. If I check/call, I might get some money from UTG but can't build the pot fast enough to get all-in by the river. If I check/raise, I'm almost guaranteed to lose UTG. I did the long gee-I-think-AT-might-be-good-but-I-don't-know pause before calling.

Turn: ($126) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets $95</font>, Hero calls $95.

Again, I do the tough-decision pause before calling.

River: ($316) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
I check, he pushes, I call (quickly this time /images/graemlins/tongue.gif)

Comments on all streets appreciated; please give villain a range of hands, too.

[Sephus]

i do the exact same, including the timing.

[tdomeski]

cool.

[AllIn3High]

I would have pushed the river myself, he's not folding anyway but he might check aces or kings behind.

[TheWorstPlayer]

You should push the river. If he really has an overpair (which he will often) you lose too much value by checking. With his numbers, it seems more likely that he has an overpair than that he will make some wild bluff on the river.

[Sephus]

seems to me that villain will almost always bet his overpair for value on the river given the way hero has played and the stack sizes.

[TheWorstPlayer]

He still has 200 left. Plenty of room to make checking behind look attractive.

[PokerFink]

Consider me on the push river bandwagon.

[Ghazban]

[ QUOTE ]
I would have pushed the river myself, he's not folding anyway but he might check aces or kings behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't a push totally inconsistent with what I'm representing (i.e. a weak made hand)? Check/call on the flop and turn followed by a river push is a huge sign of strength, no? Granted, he may or may not recognize this...

[Sephus]

[ QUOTE ]
He still has 200 left. Plenty of room to make checking behind look attractive.

[/ QUOTE ]

actually 182.4 /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

i will say that i would probably have an easier time arguing that pushing the river is "much" better than checking than arguing the same for checking v. pushing, but i feel like checking is a little better, if that makes any sense.

[TheWorstPlayer]

Nope. If he's got an overpair, he's gotta think that the combination of your bluffing plus having top pair and thinking you're good is enough for him to call 200 into a 500 pot.

[AllIn3High]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would have pushed the river myself, he's not folding anyway but he might check aces or kings behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't a push totally inconsistent with what I'm representing (i.e. a weak made hand)? Check/call on the flop and turn followed by a river push is a huge sign of strength, no? Granted, he may or may not recognize this...

[/ QUOTE ]

You're obviously correct here, but the pot has gotten so big that I doubt he'll be folding aces or kings here most of the time, but I think most people will check them behind very often (what weak made hand can you really have here that calls a bet?)

[jjb108]

nh imo.

Either check or push is fine but I like a check if I'm playing tight. With a check, you get to showdown a set letting someone bet it into you.

You're CB's get respect b/c you initially bet the set
You'll be looking at lots of cheap showdowns/check behinds for the rest of the session after they make their "checked set of 5's turn and river after flop reraise"
They'll think twice about coming over the top of your CB.
Less likely you see a bluff on a river when you check.
Weaker hands (KJo and the like) are now a lot easier to play up front with this image. You don't have to worry about getting blown off a weak made hand nearly as much.

[Ghazban]

Nobody will have guessed what an until-this-hand-not-a-maniac had here-- 7s2s and my hand was way good. He picked a real bad time to exploit his passive image.

Edit to add: I felt like he was trying to play the player and attack my feigned weakness; that's the primary reason I checked it the whole way.

[tdomeski]

[ QUOTE ]
I felt like he was trying to play the player and attack my feigned weakness; that's the primary reason I checked it the whole way.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see why you just didn't say that from the beginning. I mean the flop and turn are pretty standard it's the river that would be the decision on what to do. And it's the decision that is based ultimately on a read whether to push, check, "block" bet to let him bluff. You had a read. You were right. Sweet. Why post this hand?

[Ghazban]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I felt like he was trying to play the player and attack my feigned weakness; that's the primary reason I checked it the whole way.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see why you just didn't say that from the beginning. I mean the flop and turn are pretty standard it's the river that would be the decision on what to do. And it's the decision that is based ultimately on a read whether to push, check, "block" bet to let him bluff. You had a read. You were right. Sweet. Why post this hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because I almost never play a set this way even on a drawless board? Its rare to even get in a hand against a stack this deep as people either can't hold onto money or won't stick around and play deep in this game (and the 2/4 to a lesser extent). Maybe its retarded to ever play a set this way; I sure as hell don't know.

I don't know what could be retarded about going with your read as to the best way of getting villain's money. Read &gt; all.

[guaranteedBluff]

Out of curiousity, what do you think he puts you on? AT? AQ? In other words, what are you trying to represent by this "weakness"? As villain, I can't imagine pushing this river given your action.

If I were villain, I'd even check behind AA/KK.

[Ghazban]

[ QUOTE ]
Out of curiousity, what do you think he puts you on? AT? AQ? In other words, what are you trying to represent by this "weakness"? As villain, I can't imagine pushing this river given your action.

If I were villain, I'd even check behind AA/KK.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'd check behind AA almost every time, too but that doesn't mean villain will. I'm representing a weakish made hand like AT/JT/JJ/99 that just wants to see a showdown. I rarely bluff flop/turn/river but I will do it if that's the sort of hand I put my opponent on and I know he can't take that much heat with it. Similarly, I'll value bet an overpair on every street vs. somebody who cannot fold TPTK and I have good reason to believe that's what he's holding.

[crosse91]

should we note that the timing of your checks might have led the villian to continue his bluff?? hmmm?? should we??

also, good check on river, you might lose less money to higher sets this way /sarcasm