This one just feels wrong

This hand just felt wrong from start to finish. UTG is very loose and quite passive. His call on the flop could mean a very wide variety of hands, from sets to overcards really. UTG+1 is unknown to me. I don't think I butchered the river, but all the other streets I am very unsure of, including preflop. I'll post why I did what I did later. Flame away!

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

UTG ($180.60)
MP ($219.20)
Hero ($225.05)
SB ($465.55)
BB ($85.91)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif. SB posts a blind of $1.
UTG calls $2, MP calls $2, Hero calls $2, SB (poster) completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($10) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP bets $9.5</font>, Hero calls $9.50, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls $9.50.

Turn: ($38.50) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP bets $7</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $35</font>, UTG calls $35, MP folds.

River: ($115.50) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets $35</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $150.50

Dumle

[meleader2]

35$ to win 150$ is a bad fold, call that river. raise that flop! i'd consider just calling that turn bet.

[vanHelsing]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think I butchered the river, but all the other streets I am very unsure of, including preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]
Hm, I can't see how I fold this river. Looks like begging for a cheap SD with something like a 7 etc. too often. Odds are too good to let this one go for me.

While I usually raise PF, calling can't be too wrong.

[rwanger]

I'm with them.

Raise flop, don't give cheap draws...you're probably best but you have no idea where you are if you just call.

As played, I don't have a problem with turn raise, but like I said, raise flop. Since everyone limped pf, they could have anything.

Definately call the river. Odds are too good. If you thought you were ahead on the turn when you raised, there is no reason to believe he caught you at the river.

[Phoenix1010]

Raise the flop. Having failed that, the turn raise is fine. That river is butchered. You're good here waaay more than 20%.

[savman]

dumle,

i agree u should raise flop. calling leads to all kinds of bad things, i.e. u lose a lot of money just calling here. as for pf, depends on a lot of things. most important among these is who limped in front and what are their tendancies. 99 i always raise, 77 i limp 88 i personally limp in 200NL party, but i dont raise pf near as much as some other people. there is nothing wrong with limping or raising this spot imo. if it were folded to you i would open with 88. river, u have to call here. u dont have to be right often, and he certainly is not sure of his hand so i suspect u are good here more than u think.

[swarm]

The mistake is preflop by not raising with 88 on the button. You have two limpers so bump it up to 15-20 so you either isolate to 1 player or take it down preflop.

With 1 caller you are making a 3/4 pot bet on almost all flops and taking it down a high percentage of the time.

I would never play this hand this way but i don't see myself folding to the river bet.

i'd consider just calling that turn bet.

My reasons for not calling the turn bet was that the board was quite draw-heavy and the bet was very weak. UTG could be drawing to a lot of hands and I wanted him to pay dearly if he wanted to see a river.

Dumle

[meleader2]

[ QUOTE ]
i'd consider just calling that turn bet.

My reasons for not calling the turn bet was that the board was quite draw-heavy and the bet was very weak. UTG could be drawing to a lot of hands and I wanted him to pay dearly if he wanted to see a river.

Dumle

[/ QUOTE ]

that's understandable. i'm sure you get now to call the river, seeing as the nonspade brick hit...especially if that was your original intention /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Hm, I can't see how I fold this river. Looks like begging for a cheap SD with something like a 7 etc. too often. Odds are too good to let this one go for me.

He gave me very good odds indeed. However, it just seems like a very strange bet if he holds a seven. Also, even a loose guy like this will most likely get out on the turn when I raise. I even considered a busted flush draw that decided to bluff the river, but he must be very certain that I'd call the river since I have showed so much strength. Just my thoughts, though, since the consensus is a call, maybe I should reevaluate. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

Dumle

Preflop can probably go either way. Had only UTG limped or if I knew that UTG+1 was a bad player I raise this every time.

The general consensus in the thread was to raise the flop. I am not quite convinced here. I think there are several cons to raising this flop and I don't think they outweigh the pros here. Do I really want to build a pot here, for example? I wouldn't know where I was if I got called in one or two places. Are they drawing? Slowplaying a big hand? How should I proceed on the turn? I am also an underdog against two big clubs and I don't want to put money in as an underdog. The most compelling reason for me to not raise this flop was that I wanted to see how SB, BB and UTG reacted and also how they planned to play the turn. However, almost everyone agreed that I should raise this flop, so I would really like to hear if there is someting I haven't thought of.

The turn I basically raised because that card is pretty much a blank and UTG+1's bet seemed awfully weak to me. Also, UTG could have a wide variety of hands here and I wanted him to pay dearly to outdraw me.

And now for the river. It seems I butchered this one the most, even though it was the only street I was quite sure of /images/graemlins/confused.gif. The reason I folded this was that I really thought at the time that he either 1) Slowplayed a set of straight, or 2) His flush draw just turned into a pair of kings. I just didn't think he bluffed a busted flush draw, since I had shown so much strength. Neither did I think he had a seven, since I think he would drop most of them on the turn or check-call the river with them. I am probably giving him too much credit, though, especially given the odds I got.

Thanks all!

Dumle

[Bukem_]

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop can probably go either way. Had only UTG limped or if I knew that UTG+1 was a bad player I raise this every time.

The general consensus in the thread was to raise the flop. I am not quite convinced here. I think there are several cons to raising this flop and I don't think they outweigh the pros here. Do I really want to build a pot here, for example? I wouldn't know where I was if I got called in one or two places. Are they drawing? Slowplaying a big hand? How should I proceed on the turn? I am also an underdog against two big clubs and I don't want to put money in as an underdog. The most compelling reason for me to not raise this flop was that I wanted to see how SB, BB and UTG reacted and also how they planned to play the turn. However, almost everyone agreed that I should raise this flop, so I would really like to hear if there is someting I haven't thought of.

The turn I basically raised because that card is pretty much a blank and UTG+1's bet seemed awfully weak to me. Also, UTG could have a wide variety of hands here and I wanted him to pay dearly to outdraw me.

And now for the river. It seems I butchered this one the most, even though it was the only street I was quite sure of /images/graemlins/confused.gif. The reason I folded this was that I really thought at the time that he either 1) Slowplayed a set of straight, or 2) His flush draw just turned into a pair of kings. I just didn't think he bluffed a busted flush draw, since I had shown so much strength. Neither did I think he had a seven, since I think he would drop most of them on the turn or check-call the river with them. I am probably giving him too much credit, though, especially given the odds I got.

Thanks all!

Dumle

[/ QUOTE ]

Scared. Raise flop, call river. Its gambling, not create a 100% safe situation where you never lose.

Scared.

Perhaps. How would you proceed on the turn if you get one or two calls? It's not that unlikely given the board.

Dumle

[Bukem_]

[ QUOTE ]
Scared.

Perhaps. How would you proceed on the turn if you get one or two calls? It's not that unlikely given the board.

Dumle

[/ QUOTE ]

Bet again. Then check the river. Probably fold to any resistance.

[barongreenback]

[ QUOTE ]
The reason I folded this was that I really thought at the time that he either 1) Slowplayed a set of straight, or 2) His flush draw just turned into a pair of kings. I just didn't think he bluffed a busted flush draw, since I had shown so much strength. Neither did I think he had a seven, since I think he would drop most of them on the turn or check-call the river with them.

[/ QUOTE ]
You're putting him on way too narrow range of hands. It's hard to read hands on this sort of board but you don't need to because
wide range + strange line + good odds = call.
You'll see a king often, a big hand rarely, random one pairs and busted draws plenty and sometimes stuff you couldn't have imagined. I find I can do quite well by simply looking at bet size when deciding on river calls/folds.

James