$22 KQs in level 2

[Freudian]

No particular reads. Anyone fold this flop?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

CO (t1590)
Button (t665)
SB (t905)
BB (t1200)
UTG (t680)
UTG+1 (t725)
MP1 (t785)
MP2 (t795)
Hero (t655)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls t30, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls t30, MP2 calls t30, Hero calls t30, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to t60</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls t30, UTG calls t30, MP1 calls t30, MP2 calls t30, Hero calls t30.

Flop: (t375) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets t30</font>, UTG folds, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises to t125</font>, MP2 folds, Hero pushes

[Matt R.]

No way. Good push, you're too short on chips to fold this.

I don't like the MP1 raise...so yes I'd fold. But I'd like to hear your(or anyones) reasoning for the push.

[Freudian]

I can't put him on AK based on the preflop action, but his play could be a weak steal attempt with a weaker king or a flushdraw. Sure he might be sitting with two pair or a set but his play doesn't seem like it. That in combination with all the chips already in the middle make this a decent push IMO.

If I have 300 chips more I probably could let this one go though.

his raise is less than 1/3 pot. i really don't know what to make of that. unfortunately it's early on.

i push. if he's got a set (or two pair?) fire up another.

just curious... results?

[Freudian]

[ QUOTE ]

just curious... results?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll post them later. I find that the advice get better if people don't know how the hand ended.

[gisb0rne]

I fold preflop.

[Dr_Jeckyl_00]

I fold KQs until L3-4... especially to a raise in front of me... it is often 2nd best hand, especially early in a tourney.

[Freudian]

There were three limpers before me. The minraise came after I called. I like KQs and if I am getting a good enough price to see a flop with it I don't mind.

[gisb0rne]

The problem, imo, is that KQs is a drawing hand. What flop are you going to be happy putting all your chips in with? Unless you flop a straight or a flush or 2 pair there's a good chance you'll lose a lot of chips to a better hand with this many players. In addition there's many people to act behind you.

That's why I prefer folding at this early level. I only limp with pairs (and I'm experimenting limping with AK in this situation).

[Melchiades]

A drawing hand, huh?

[Freudian]

[ QUOTE ]
The problem, imo, is that KQs is a drawing hand. What flop are you going to be happy putting all your chips in with?

[/ QUOTE ]

A flop like this. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I think it is +EV to play KQs after three limpers. Of course not as +EV as AKs but still. I don't have to get all my chips in on the flop. A lot of the time I get an excellent price to draw to the flush or the straight because people don't protect their hands well enough.

I'm not saying that folding is bad but loosening up a bit in level 1 &amp; 2 should is something I want to do. Not only do I think I can win more chips that way but it also is a better preparation for the higher limits.

[Dr_Jeckyl_00]

The problem is, you are caught in the middle. I think that HOH calls this the sandwich effect... you could end up wasting a lot of money pf only to have to fold post flop, or even pf if someone tries to steal it... not sure, I am weak post flop, so I try and avoid situations that get me into trouble... for now.

[Scuba Chuck]

I would consider calling with a hand like this from LP to Button, everywhere else I fold. I'd prefer to see all the action before me first. Furthermore, once the pot has been raised, and with so many limpers, I think I want more than TP2K before I commit all my chips. Anyhow, the action is already beginning to suck. I think if you find yourself folding the best hand here, it won't be often enough to make it wrong. I really hate KQ sometimes, and other times I like it.

[ilya]

Preflop is fine I think. I wouldn't even seriously consider folding KQs UTG in l2.
On the flop I would just call &amp; decide what to do after seeing the rest of the flop action or if there are no more raises then the turn action.

[Freudian]

Results: <font color="#FFFFFF">
Everyone folded but MP1 who called with a Kh6h and didn't hit.

Sixhanded TPGK isn't that strong but when I pushed four had already acted and none of them seemed to like their hand all that much or feel the need to protect it. If MP1 had pushed or bet pot I would have had to go away.
</font>

[Freudian]

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop is fine I think. I wouldn't even seriously consider folding KQs UTG in l2.
On the flop I would just call &amp; decide what to do after seeing the rest of the flop action or if there are no more raises then the turn action.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought about it for a while but that would make any push I make on the turn pretty much impotent, especially if BB feels he gets good enough pot odds to call on the flop.

[Paul Thomson]

Personally I think pushing is a mistake. But folding is even a larger one. I think calling is the best play.

Pushing is wrong because you give both your opponents the right odds to call with either a flush draw or a open ended straigt draw (both are possible on this board). The pot has $530. If you push you put in an additional $595. The pot will have $1,125. The BB will have to put in $565 into a $1,125 pot. Not quite 2-1 but if he has the nut flush he might assume (correctly) that the Ace is also an out and being getting the correct odds to call. If the BB folds, the MP1 will have to put in $440 into a $1,125 dollar pot, getting much better than the correct 2-1 odds to call.

Whereas if you call. And let's assume that the BB also calls (this makes my case weaker). The pot will have $750. Now let's assume that they both check to you on the turn after a safe card falls, then you can put in your final 470 which will not be giving your opponent less than the correct 4-1 odds to call.

The point being is that calling gives your opponents a chance to make a mistake. If you push then you are just crossing your fingers and hoping your opponents don't have you beat. A tough spot considering the action ahead of you.

Given this tough spot, an added bonus if you call is that you then have a chance to reavulate on the flop and the turn.

GL. Hope it worked out.

[Freudian]

Button is still to act also. I don't like having it go to the turn with a 900 chip pot fourhanded against god knows what hands. If there is any chance to take down this pot on the flop, I think it is a very good outcome for me. If a flushdraw calls my push, I'm fine with it.

[jeffraider]

I love the hand!! I play it the exact same way, and anyone who folds preflop needs to ditch the skirt and man up and play some poker. I'm all about playing nice and tight early but folding here is ridiculous.

[jeffraider]

[ QUOTE ]
I would consider calling with a hand like this from LP to Button, everywhere else I fold. I'd prefer to see all the action before me first. Furthermore, once the pot has been raised, and with so many limpers, I think I want more than TP2K before I commit all my chips. Anyhow, the action is already beginning to suck. I think if you find yourself folding the best hand here, it won't be often enough to make it wrong. I really hate KQ sometimes, and other times I like it.

[/ QUOTE ]

This from the guy who opencompletes T7o and Q5s??!!?!?!

[tigerite]

I have to agree, I think this hand was played as well as you could play it. If he has AQ.. well.. more strength to his bow as they say.