How bad was this suckout?

[pufferfish]

Ten handed microlimit game. Texture was pretty typical.

I’m on the Button with ATo.

It’s folded to LMP (light raiser potential) who raises and I 3-bet. BB and LMP call.

FLOP: [Qc Kc 9s]

Checked to me and I bet. Call, call.

TURN: [Qc Kc 9s] [6h]

Checked to me and I bet. BB check-raises, LMP folds and I call.

RIVER: [Qc Kc 9s 6h] [Js]

BB bets, I raise and BB calls.

BB had KQo for top two pair on the flop and got mucho upset with me.

Any comments would be appreciated.

TC,
pf

[Vehn]

You have a clear check on the turn. Even a "light" raiser has to have you beat here, or likely drawing to 3 outs with a worse ace. If you're going to spend a big bet here check the turn and call the river unimproved. Given that you bet the turn I think a call of the checkraise is OK.

[JTG51]

I agree with Vehn, the turn bet is pretty bad after both called you on the flop. Your chances of winning the pot with a turn bet have to be close to zero. Take the free card.

[rkiray]

I don't play microlimit so this advice may be all wet.

I would fold preflop. AT isn't strong enough to 3 bet, especially against a light raiser. But if you must play, I like the raise better than a call.

Flop play is fine.

On the turn, I would fold to the check raise. He basically caught you bluffing, IMHO.

River, you got lucky, but you played it correctly.

[baseball38]

you must be living right!

baseball38 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif

[lil']

I winced when you said you bet the turn. You kinda walked right into that one.
As far as him being upset with you, tough luck for him. It's not your fault a J showed up.

[Ed Miller]

Here's my comment... lay the ATo down. How does this hand suck? Let me count the ways...

Even if your opponent will raise with some hands that AT wants to play against, AT won't show a profit against the range of hands that even a loose raiser will raise from that spot.

Second, I would have checked the turn. Once you get called in two spots on this flop against these opponents, they aren't both mucking on the turn. It is quite likely that you are being setup for a checkraise, and you would like the shot to draw at your gutshot.

[Schmed]

I would only limp with a10o...if it's raised to me, button or no, fold is typical...

[pufferfish]

vehn_ and JTG51,

I agree about checking the turn; that was a bad bet. I needed the free-card as much as anyone.

Thank you both for replying.

pf

[pufferfish]

I would fold preflop. AT isn't strong enough to 3 bet, especially against a light raiser. But if you must play, I like the raise better than a call.

I was trying to isolate LMP. I had actually been playing very tight until this point and I thought he might be on a blind steal.

I had contested a few pots with him, and win or lose, had always started with the stronger hand. As the result of chat I believe he knew that and I felt I might be able to bluff him if I didn’t catch any cards.

Unfortunately BB got in the way and I didn’t adjust for that.

On the turn, I would fold to the check raise. He basically caught you bluffing, IMHO.

Perhaps I should have since I had no reason to believe that the CR meant anything other than strength. But, it was heads-up and I did have the gutshot working for me.

Thank you for replying,

pf

[pufferfish]

It’s nice to get lucky once in a while!

pf

[Nottom]

Maybe its just me, but I would 3-bet a micro-limit loose LMP open-raiser with ATo from the button all day long. I think I'm a relatively tight player and I open raise with a lot of hands from that position that AT is more than happy to play against, against a loose player who will do this with any ace, any pair, any suited cards or whatever, I think the 3-bet is fine as an attempt to isolate.

Flop bet is good.

Turn you should take the free card, but once you are check-raised you have the odds to call since you can probably get 2 bets on the river if you hit.

[pufferfish]

As far as him being upset with you, tough luck for him. It's not your fault a J showed up.

It was weird, half the table erupted. BB sat-out and whined for a few minutes before leaving the table. A couple of other players made comments about chasers and bad players at that limit. Another checked the hand history and made some comments in favor of chasing.

I sat back and chucked because a) that was the cheesiest hand/play I had made in that session. I had shown nothing but very strong hands before that. And b) this was a table full of loose chasers complaining about the very thing that they do!

At least it didn’t get nasty. I kind-of apologized to BB and asked him to come back. I said I would fold the next time he bet. He came back a few minutes later and (good to my word) the next time he bet, I folded (was gonna fold anyway - /forums/images/icons/wink.gif).

It was a chatty table and actually a pleasant session.

Thank you for replying.

pf

[pufferfish]

Here's my comment... lay the ATo down. How does this hand suck? Let me count the ways...

Even if your opponent will raise with some hands that AT wants to play against, AT won't show a profit against the range of hands that even a loose raiser will raise from that spot.

Maybe it was a dumb move, but it was a move I would not have made against anyone but LMP. I thought if I could get it heads-up with him that I could out-play him. The cards didn’t matter to me that much; I was making a move on the guy.

BB got in the way of my plan. I guess I didn’t alter my plan because I figured BB was on some dumb-ass draw and would eventually fold. Oops.

Thank you for replying.

pf

[Homer]

BB had KQo for top two pair on the flop and got mucho upset with me.

His check-call the flop, check-raise the turn play may make more money in the long run, but it does not win as great a percentage of hands as does check-raising the flop and betting the turn. If his priority is to win hands and not maximize EV then he should do this for now on, or else stop whining like a little [censored] baby when he takes a beat.

-- Homer

[pufferfish]

I would only limp with a10o...if it's raised to me, button or no, fold is typical...

I was trying to make a move on LMP. Perhaps the wrong spot and wrong cards.

Thank you for replying.

pf

[Homer]

I kind-of apologized to BB and asked him to come back.

I hope your apology went something like this -- "I'm sorry.....that you suck."

-- Homer

[pufferfish]

His check-call the flop, check-raise the turn play may make more money in the long run, but it does not win as great a percentage of hands as does check-raising the flop and betting the turn. If his priority is to win hands and not maximize EV then he should do this for now on, or else stop whining like a little [censored] baby when he takes a beat.

I wonder what he would have whined about if I had (properly) checked it through on the turn. No bet from him until the river and then slammo! That would have been fun to watch!

Thank you for replying.

pf

[pufferfish]

This may be a bad adjustment on my part but I’m playing much weaker Aces at these loosie-goosie tables. I haven’t been out-kicked yet!

The other cheesy hand I remember from this session was limping from the Button with A5o. BB (with A6o) and I split the pot with a pair of Aces when neither of our kickers played. Probably shouldn’t have admitted that!

Thank you for replying.

pf

[Your Mom]

I wonder what he would have whined about if I had (properly) checked it through on the turn. No bet from him until the river and then slammo! That would have been fun to watch!

I was thinking this exact thing. He played his top 2 horribly in my opinion unless he was very sure you would bet it.

[rkiray]

Actually I made a mistake last night and forgot to do the math. I was thinking more of the psychology of the play and how it looked to me like you got caugth bluffing (or at least semi-bluffing). I just counted and it appears you had exactly 11 big bets in the pot so you should have called the check raise. But it was really close.

[pufferfish]

I hope your apology went something like this -- "I'm sorry.....that you suck."

No, lol, I wanted more of his money. Ironically, he was one of the biggest chasers at the table. He just didn’t like being on the other end of it.

pf

[dirty_dan]

With a turn checkraiser he was probably able to count on an extra bet on the river. So his implied odds were 12-1.

[lil']

This is a good point. His opponent chose to play the hand in such a manner that decreased his chances of winning but increased the amount of money he could win. If he played it in a straightforward manner he may have won. If you choose to gamble you will pay sometimes...

[bernie]

not sure what a light raiser is. but ill assume this is a raiser with a wide range here....is he next to you in the CO? would he try a steal here?

depending on the player, this is a raise or fold situation. factor in how tight the blinds are. if theyre tight i may lean more towards raising. you really dont want to see this 4 ways with 2 cold callers behind you. however, a case can be made if the blinds will way overdefend. you may have the best hand at this point. but if this is a loose raiser and the guys behind you are tight, go ahead and try it.

the flop, you bet, they call. hmmmm im thinking of checking the turn at this point if i can. both on a draw? maybe. not likely though given the action.

turn....shouldve taken the free card. someone usually has something even if theyre calling with a Q, you may not bump them out at this point. you need this free card. unless they play very tight in the later rounds, then maybe bet. but once you get raised....and its by a BB who coldcalled preflop, the bells should be going off. he has a hand. his flop call was also a good indication he may have hit the flop.

it's 9-1 on your call. you may only have 3 outs. you could lay this down here.

b

[pufferfish]

I hate to comment too much on what my motivation was because it tends to get distorted over time.

But… here goes. He was LMP, there was CO and then me on the Button. For some reason I was waiting to play him heads-up. There is some history there, but just say I was waiting for a chance to isolate him. I wanted to see if I could out-play him, lol, just ‘cause. But then the loose BB got in the way, should have known.

What the hell do I do on the flop when checked to, well crap I raised.

When checked to on the turn, well … I had been playing very conservatively so far, I don’t know why I let one rip then, just don’t know.

I do realize that I should have checked the turn. Oh yea, I called the turn CR more out of surprise than any cold calculation of odds. I was confused because I thought that dufus was on some turkey hunt, lol.

But, you know what; it was worth the table uproar that it caused. I thought I was gonna be lynched, good thing it was online. And, from a table full of loose chasers that would do the same thing in a minute!

It was a weird session, but fun.

TC,
pf

[Ed Miller]

Part of the problem with making this sort of play is that often the people behind you will not fold. And sometimes (relatively often) they will pick up a hand that AT does not want to play against.

When people make isolation plays, they often just assume that everyone will fold behind. In many games, this is just not a safe assumption.

[pufferfish]

Part of the problem with making this sort of play is that often the people behind you will not fold. And sometimes (relatively often) they will pick up a hand that AT does not want to play against.

When people make isolation plays, they often just assume that everyone will fold behind. In many games, this is just not a safe assumption.

I agree. I had a great desire to isolate LMP, not for mean or vindictive reasons, but just for good play and fun and challenge. I knew BB to be loose but forgot in my enthusiasm.

Oh well, I’m not too upset, except for my poor turn play. The table reaction was priceless!

TY,
pf