Should be standard, did I play it like that?

[Peter]

I feel this should be a pretty standard hand, but I'm really not sure if I played it correctly.
Opponent is 38/18.

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Peter is CO with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Peter raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Peter calls.

Flop: (7 SB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Peter calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Peter calls.

River: (6.50 BB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Peter raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, Peter calls.

Final Pot: 12.50 BB

[MarkD]

I like every street here. This is how I would play it.

[wackjob]

standard for me too(the way you played it, that is)

[Spicymoose]

What would you want to do differently? I don't even see any options here.

[Peter]

I've been playing so much lately without trying to learn, that even standard hands make me unsure.

What if the river is a blank, I just call?

Peter

[Spicymoose]

[ QUOTE ]

What if the river is a blank, I just call?

[/ QUOTE ]

Bingo.

[climber]

yeah totally normal...

[Peter]

Thanks all for the reassurance. I guess the fact that I would just be calling all the way if a blank falls on the river made me feel a little unsatisfied.

Peter

[Spicymoose]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks all for the reassurance. I guess the fact that I would just be calling all the way if a blank falls on the river made me feel a little unsatisfied.

Peter

[/ QUOTE ]

What were you thinking of doing differently? Although this is standard, it is good to know what you were thinking of doing, and why it might be wrong.

Raising the flop?
Raising the turn?
Folding the river?
Raising the river UI?
Folding to the 3-bet?

Please choose which you think you might do, and we can talk about why they are bad.

[MarkD]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Thanks all for the reassurance. I guess the fact that I would just be calling all the way if a blank falls on the river made me feel a little unsatisfied.

Peter

[/ QUOTE ]

What were you thinking of doing differently? Although this is standard, it is good to know what you were thinking of doing, and why it might be wrong.

Raising the flop?
Raising the turn?
Folding the river?
Raising the river UI?
Folding to the 3-bet?

Please choose which you think you might do, and we can talk about why they are bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think a lot of people raise this flop and then do this:
- if villian just calls the raise they proceed to bet the turn and the river.
- if villian 3-bets the raise then they decide the villian has an ace and they call the flop and check/fold the turn unimproved (the diamond is an imrpovment), or they think the villian is on the flush draw and they either cap it and lead the turn or they stop and go.

I'm not saying that I would raise the flop here but a lot of people would.

Looks good to me. The only variant I might try is to raise the turn for a free showdown. Depends on his pot flop aggression. If it's really high, I like your line best. If it's less than 1.5, I might raise the turn for a free showdown and bet the river if I improve.

[Spicymoose]

[ QUOTE ]
The only variant I might try is to raise the turn for a free showdown.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you explain your reasoning for this? Make villain be any type of player you want.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The only variant I might try is to raise the turn for a free showdown.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you explain your reasoning for this? Make villain be any type of player you want.

[/ QUOTE ]

Many villians will keep betting at you until you show you have a hand. If you think he'll slow down on your raise, you get to showdown for the same cost as calling down. If you improve, you get an extra bet by betting the river. Win 3BB when you improve, win/lose 2BB otherwise.

It's particularly useful when you have a reasonable number of outs.

I'm not saying the turn raise is the play. I'm saying with a common type of opponent, it's an option.

[Spicymoose]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The only variant I might try is to raise the turn for a free showdown.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you explain your reasoning for this? Make villain be any type of player you want.

[/ QUOTE ]

Many villians will keep betting at you until you show you have a hand. If you think he'll slow down on your raise, you get to showdown for the same cost as calling down. If you improve, you get an extra bet by betting the river. Win 3BB when you improve, win/lose 2BB otherwise.

It's particularly useful when you have a reasonable number of outs.

I'm not saying the turn raise is the play. I'm saying with a common type of opponent, it's an option.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't get the advantage you said. Let us assume that he always slowsdown to our raise (best case, right?). You also said he will keep betting until we show we have a hand. That means that if he has nothing, we lose him if we raise the turn, but we still get the money on the river. If we improve, we can always raise the river, so we still get that same 3 BB when we improve win/lose 2 BB otherwise you mentioned.

I am not saying that raising the turn is always wrong, I just don't really understand it.

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
Looks good to me. The only variant I might try is to raise the turn for a free showdown. Depends on his pot flop aggression. If it's really high, I like your line best. If it's less than 1.5, I might raise the turn for a free showdown and bet the river if I improve.

[/ QUOTE ]

raising the turn for a free showdown sucks here because you ahve a gutshot and flush draw and thus cant fold to the 3bet.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Looks good to me. The only variant I might try is to raise the turn for a free showdown. Depends on his pot flop aggression. If it's really high, I like your line best. If it's less than 1.5, I might raise the turn for a free showdown and bet the river if I improve.

[/ QUOTE ]

raising the turn for a free showdown sucks because you ahve a gutshot and thus cant fold to the 3bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought that was entirely the point of a free showdown, to raise the turn when you have a hand, but also have outs to a better hand.

Other wise what's the point of the free showdown? If you've got zero outs, just call down.

[Spicymoose]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Looks good to me. The only variant I might try is to raise the turn for a free showdown. Depends on his pot flop aggression. If it's really high, I like your line best. If it's less than 1.5, I might raise the turn for a free showdown and bet the river if I improve.

[/ QUOTE ]

raising the turn for a free showdown sucks because you ahve a gutshot and thus cant fold to the 3bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought that was entirely the point of a free showdown, to raise the turn when you have a hand, but also have outs to a better hand.

Other wise what's the point of the free showdown? If you've got zero outs, just call down.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought the point of raising for a free showdown was you could do it when occasionally you will get a better hand to fold, but would have called down anyway.

[ QUOTE ]
I am not saying that raising the turn is always wrong, I just don't really understand it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure what to say other than to read the ToP section on the free showdown/free card.

If we raise the turn and "lose" him, so what? We win the pot, that's good. Given the board, if he was behind, he had outs to win. Between the odds of him not betting the river and the odds of him hitting a hand on the river, having him fold the turn isn't a big deal.

Most won't fold though. They'll call your turn raise and check the river. This means you see showdown for 2BB anyway, but if you hit your hand in a big way on the river, you can suck another 1BB out of them when you're ahead.

Free showdown is the same principle as a free card, just at different street. Same caveats apply though regardling likelihood of success. You can't always buy a free card, nor can you or should you always buy a free showdown.

[ QUOTE ]

I thought the point of raising for a free showdown was you could do it when occasionally you will get a better hand to fold, but would have called down anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

A fold is nice and part of the equation, but it's worth it if you have a hand that might be best. If you're convinced you don't have the best hand, calling down is pointless. Calling the turn maybe if you have odds, but why call the river if you know you're going to lose?

The free showdown move can win in 3 ways:
1) Villian folds to the raise
2) You have the better hand anyway
3) You hit a better hand on the river.

If we're committed to calling the river (this is important) then you must believe #2 is a possibility. If it's a possibility, then a free showdown can be a worthwhile play.

Again though, folks here just asked what we might do as an alternative. I might raise the turn. Not usually, but maybe 1/4th the time to mix up my game.

[Spicymoose]

[ QUOTE ]

If we raise the turn and "lose" him, so what?


[/ QUOTE ]

If he was bluffing with extremely few outs, this is bad.


[ QUOTE ]
Most won't fold though. They'll call your turn raise and check the river. This means you see showdown for 2BB anyway, but if you hit your hand in a big way on the river, you can suck another 1BB out of them when you're ahead.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't get how this method sucks out another 1 BB when ahead. Couldn't we just raise the river when we improve? Most hands that call our turn raise will call our river raise. Most hands that call our turn raise would have bet the river. Furthermore, getting 3-bet here sucks, as we can't fold.

[ QUOTE ]
Free showdown is the same principle as a free card, just at different street.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think these two principles are entirely different.

[Spicymoose]

[ QUOTE ]
If you're convinced you don't have the best hand, calling down is pointless. Calling the turn maybe if you have odds, but why call the river if you know you're going to lose?

[/ QUOTE ]

I call down because although I think I am behind, I do win sometimes


[ QUOTE ]
The free showdown move can win in 3 ways:
1) Villian folds to the raise
2) You have the better hand anyway
3) You hit a better hand on the river.

If we're committed to calling the river (this is important) then you must believe #2 is a possibility. If it's a possibility, then a free showdown can be a worthwhile play.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think the main benefit in a free showdown would be getting the villain to fold to a raise with a better hand. I just don't see that happening here. I think getting him to fold with a worse hand is actually something that we don't want to happen.

So, I am really seeing no benefits here. Although it seems pretty similar in value to calling down, I would say that the two negative things are if we fold out a worse hand that would have bluffed the river, and if we get 3-bet on the turn.

I can't do much more to explain it. Read the ToP (or maybe it's in SSH) section on it. You don't raise for a free showdown to fold out a better hand. That's called a bluff-raise. You raise for the 3 reasons I mentioned before.

You say you don't want to fold out a worse hand on the turn with a raise, but then you turn around and say you'd raise the river if you hit, but why wouldn't he just fold the river to you raise? And what makes you think he's going to fire yet another barrel at the river with a worse hand, especially when the board gets scary? Or even call you're bet if he doesn't fire?

[Spicymoose]

[ QUOTE ]
You say you don't want to fold out a worse hand on the turn with a raise, but then you turn around and say you'd raise the river if you hit, but why wouldn't he just fold the river to you raise?

[/ QUOTE ]
He might, but we still get that extra bluff BB from him. If we raise for the free showdown, he get none. Furthermore, he may have improved to a second best hand that he thinks is good, and will call our river bet (yet another BB for us).

[ QUOTE ]
And what makes you think he's going to fire yet another barrel at the river with a worse hand, especially when the board gets scary?

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think he necessarily will. I think it is a possibility. If he 100% does not, then both our lines have the same value. If he sometimes bluffs the river, we get more BB from him by letting him bluff.

[ QUOTE ]
Or even call you're bet if he doesn't fire?

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, if he does this even 1% of the time, there is some value. I think the number is higher than that. But the point is, we don't need this value, it is just a bonus.

I still havn't been able to see where we are gaining our extra value on the turn raise, yet have seen a few places where we might lose it.

*sigh* Read ToP, that's all I can say. There's a reason Sklaskly is a published author..he can explain things far better than I.

[Spicymoose]

[ QUOTE ]
*sigh* Read ToP, that's all I can say. There's a reason Sklaskly is a published author..he can explain things far better than I.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can't find it. I assume it is under the section of "Raising", but I don't see it anywhere. Help?!

[Peter]

Raising the flop was one of my thoughts. Can't I safely fold to a turn bet if he 3bets the flop? (Assuming a diamond wouldn't have fell on the turn).

Raising the turn was also one of my thoughts, but since I really can't fold to a 3bet that didn't feel good either.

Folding to the river 3bet also crossed my mind. I'm splitting the pot at best there in my opinion. Or are there still hands I can beat?

Peter

[Guy McSucker]

[ QUOTE ]

I can't do much more to explain it. Read the ToP (or maybe it's in SSH) section on it. You don't raise for a free showdown to fold out a better hand. That's called a bluff-raise. You raise for the 3 reasons I mentioned before.


[/ QUOTE ]

No.

The free showdown raise gains its value from the times your opponent folds a hand that beat you or that had enough outs to call your raise.

You don't get value when you're behind but improve on the river for the reasons SpicyMoose said: in that case you get the same number of bets by calling the turn and raising the river.

You don't get value when you're behind and fail to improve on the river. In this case, the best we can hope for is to show it down for two bets, and we're opening ourselves to the possibility of investing more bets or failing to get to showdown.

You don't get value when you're ahead on the turn and he folds correctly. In that case you're better off calling the turn and snapping off his bluff on the river.

You do of course get value when you're ahead and he incorrectly calls. This is not usually what's going on with a free-showdown raise, since if we're planning to check the river through unimproved, we're not that confident we're ahead.

The remaining possibility is that we're behind and he incorrectly folds. That's where the free showdown raise has potential for value over and above calling down.

The point is just that we're planning to call down, so we think we're ahead often enough for that; but we choose to invest bet number two in trying to get a few folds out of the opponent on the turn rather than calling the river.

This move really backfires when we have a hand that needs to call a threebet and fold the river unimproved, like this hand, since we end up putting in three bets rather than two when we lose.

Guy.