ONLINE 15. KQo. HOW DID I DO.

[TStoneMBD]

HJ is a Tag player who knows im also a tag/lag. he knows my 3 betting range here is probably quite large.

BT is a weird calling fish. the type who loves to chase, who never folds and doesnt raise until the river and only if he has a strong hand. his preflop coldcalling 3 bet range is ahead of me on average and hes not folding on the flop or turn regardless of his holding and will probably take any ace to the showdown. i checked the flop hoping he would oblige in checking behind.

HJ opens, I 3bet in the CO with KQo. BT calls 3 cold, Blinds fold HJ calls.

Flop is 932 with 2 spades. I have the Qs

HJ checks, I check (?), BT bets, HJ and I both call.

Turn is a 7h

HJ checks, I check, BT bets, HJ folds I call getting 8:1(?)

River is a K

I bet, BT raises, I call

[cartman]

In my opinion the flop call is marginal and the turn call is poor. When he raises the river it sure looks you are beat, but in a pot that size I would reluctantly call although maybe if I were a better player I would fold.

Cartman

[kurosh]

Hi flawless,

I would not bet the river. If I did bet, I would fold to a raise.

If he is as passive as you make him out to be, then maybe the turn is a fold though.

[dave44]

I don't think your making money off that turn call. Do you think this villain would call hands like KJ, JTs, and 44 for 3 bets and bet the flop and turn? Without these mediocre holdings, 8:1 is not enough. He's got you dominated to just 3 outs or just plain drawing dead a bit too often.

humm, why is your range of 3bet hands so large as you acknowledge...If he knows ur likely to 3 bet, wont he slow down his raises on crappier hands? I dont get myself into this costly situation...
call river and look at his ugly 2 pr

[Grisgra]

[ QUOTE ]
humm, why is your range of 3bet hands so large as you acknowledge...If he knows ur likely to 3 bet, wont he slow down his raises on crappier hands? I dont get myself into this costly situation...
call river and look at his ugly AK or set

[/ QUOTE ]

fyp -- I don't put villain on two pair here, but I agree we're behind, and I agree with Kurosh that if you're going to bet the river, against this opponent you probably need to fold to a raise. (On the other hand, I've had opponents raise me here with stuff like JJ or QQ when I donked into them when my A hit and I was calling down with AK. This doesn't seem like that kind of player, though.)

I think peeling on the turn is probably bad -- too likely that our outs are dirty.

[gaming_mouse]

Lets say his 3bet range is 99+, AQ+. Is that off?

AA - 6,0
KK - 3,0
QQ - 3,3
JJ - 6,6
TT - 6,6
99 - 6,0
AK - 12,3
AQ - 12,3

avg 2.8 outs. even the flop call is marginal, the turn certainly.

[TStoneMBD]

you misread the action. i 3bet preflop and he coldcalled 3.

id put his hand range on perhaps:

AJo+
ATs+
77+
KQo+
KTs+
JQs+

and perhaps throw in some random hands like KTo and 44. the problem with giving him this hand range however is that some hands are naturally more likely than others. its hard for me to weigh his hand range.

so take out the 2 random hands and give him 88+ and KJs+ and take out QJs. whats my equity on the turn now?

[bugstud]

I think I hate every street but preflop, given the read. Flop is mighty thin.

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]

so take out the 2 random hands and give him 88+ and KJs+ and take out QJs. whats my equity on the turn now?

[/ QUOTE ]

now you'd be 37%. so that changes everything.

EDIT: TS, by the way, how do you get a sense for where you statnd against such a wide range like this? do you use any tricks? b/c without pokerstoving it i'm often way off.

EDIT2: Also, alot of our equity comes from calling down when he has KJs, etc, so if he's capable of bluffing the river when we check to him after missing then our actual equity will be less.

[TStoneMBD]

what do you mean the flop is mighty thin?? you want me to fold getting 13.5:1 odds?? or do you mean that a bet is better than a check?

[TStoneMBD]

hi mouse. youre much better at the math then me so you should be better than i would be at calculating equity during a hand. only experience will let you guage his hand range accurately though.

another problem with doing equity calculations for hands like this is that some hands are more likely than others after he bets both the flop and turn. i wouldnt expect him to bet every hand on the flop and turn that he calls 3 with. i havent played enough with him to get an idea of what hands hed bet with. i wasnt planning on calling the river. there arent that many hands im ahead of after his preflop coldcalling range and his hand range gets worse for me after he bets the flop and turn.

even if my equity on the turn is 37% it really isnt nearly that much if i dont plan on calling a river bet.

you need 6.7:1 odds to chase a clean 6 outter and in this case my odds are 8:1. i also have implied odds of probably a half BB or so. im not good at doing combos but if you came up with all his combos for the hand range i gave you youd probably see that i have enough outs to call getting 8.5:1.

[bugstud]

[ QUOTE ]
what do you mean the flop is mighty thin?? you want me to fold getting 13.5:1 odds?? or do you mean that a bet is better than a check?

[/ QUOTE ]

I dunno, I guess I just had his range as substantially more narrow because of his aggression. maybe I'm wrong. All I know is when I play this hand when I'm playing, it ends up like this and I feel really sick doing it.

[Surfbullet]

I think you need to fold the turn. You can't give him his full hand range because this type of player isn't the bet-when-checked-to type. The hands you do well against would have checked behind the flop or turn...your left with sets and overpairs, and the occasional AK when he bets the turn again IMO.

Surf

[TStoneMBD]

not to be results oriented but in the actual hand i called the river and he showed KJo.

i didnt think i could fold to the river raise because unless he has AK or a set i cant give him credit for 2pair. i just thought there were too many hands he could have to make folding to the raise right.

[Victor]

[ QUOTE ]
humm, why is your range of 3bet hands so large as you acknowledge.

[/ QUOTE ]

bc the openraisers range is very large here. so tstones hand is still, on average, better.

[ QUOTE ]
If he knows ur likely to 3 bet, wont he slow down his raises on crappier hands?

[/ QUOTE ]

we would like this right?

[ QUOTE ]
I dont get myself into this costly situation...

[/ QUOTE ]

you are losing money here. what stakes do you play?

[ QUOTE ]
call river and look at his ugly 2 pr

[/ QUOTE ]

its proly better to fold.

[Zele]

What action do you prefer to betting the river? This guy sounds like the textbook candidate for the river bet/fold. I can't see check/folding here, and I really can't see check/calling.

[kurosh]

even thugs gotta learn to take it easy

[oreogod]

[ QUOTE ]

BT is a weird calling fish. the type who loves to chase, who never folds and doesnt raise until the river and only if he has a strong hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

imo, I cant fold to a raise here. Id prolly pay off, only because it always seems these type of players are not the kind u cant depend on.

He cold calls 3 and bets when checked to...if we were to give him a decent hand, u are probably beating whatver he has on the river. (this depends if he would bet a set when checked to). Also will he bet a pair+draw here on the flop here? In that case, against his river raise, all Im worried about is being reverse dominated or up against a set (or AK). I dont think hes calling 3bets w/ 54s.

Anyway, for me there is enough of "wtf" going on in this hand that I pay off.

[Alobar]

I do that turn fold thingy everyone keeps talking about

Your read is he only raises the river with the goods, so it seems like you can fold (I read the results...how strong was that read?). Bet/fold here is way beter than check/call

[NLSoldier]

Hi flawless.

I think I would bet the flop.

[TStoneMBD]

my read on his raises is really weak. i dont know too much about his bluff raise/idiot frequency. i just know hes a idiot chasing calling guy.