2 Short stacks on the bubble. (Party 20+2)

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t150 (4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Hero (t414)
SB (t3468)
BB (t100)
UTG (t4018)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t414 (All-In)</font>

[durron597]

You have the BB covered and he has a random hand and you have KJo. Easy push.

[jedinite]

Durron, I don't know if you noticed but hero is on the button with a big stack in the SB, and the BB can only post 2/3rd the big blind. Just wanted to make sure you still were recommending pushing here. I think its a decent question.

In my opinion, this is a fold. At best the BB is going to end up with 200 chips after this hand, and is going to post 75 of those next hand as the small blind. I'm assuming the SB is smart enough to call here (if I fold) with any two.

With the stack disparity, the small blind is probably going to call our 414 with a wide range of hands to try to ensure someone gets ko'd.

Assuming we've got at least one more pass through the BB before it jumps levels, I'm folding KJo here. If you're small blind, or if you had enough chips to have some FE on the SB, its an easy push, but I think you've got zero FE and there's just too much chance that the BB gets KO'd in the next two hands.

My range for pushing here is probably any ace, any pair... i certainly could be wrong.

[bluefeet]

[ QUOTE ]
You have the BB covered and he has a random hand and you have KJo. Easy push.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. But just for grins, let's limp. Why not? We're prepared to take on shortie HU - because we have a hand significantly stronger than random. SB will likely call our push anyway. Heck, I WANT SB to join!! The more the merrier. Might as well present an opportunity for him/you to do it as cheaply as possible. If he pushes over, so be it. We're no worse for wear. But you do need to get involved in this hand, it's strong enough. BB doubling when you don't...getting raped through the blinds...this will be a not-so-fun fold fest ITM.

You don't mind if SB comes along here, and it's probably even preferable. The absolute last thing you want is him deciding to fold his SB for grins, too.

Don't laugh, I've seen it.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You have the BB covered and he has a random hand and you have KJo. Easy push.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. But just for grins, let's limp. Why not? We're prepared to take on shortie HU - because we have a hand significantly stronger than random. SB will likely call our push anyway. Heck, I WANT SB to join!! The more the merrier. Might as well present an opportunity for him/you to do it as cheaply as possible. If he pushes over, so be it. We're no worse for wear. But you do need to get involved in this hand, it's strong enough. BB doubling when you don't...getting raped through the blinds...this will be a not-so-fun fold fest ITM.

[/ QUOTE ]

i believe that bluefeet is 10000000% right. limp is i think infinitely better than pushing.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You have the BB covered and he has a random hand and you have KJo. Easy push.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. But just for grins, let's limp. Why not? We're prepared to take on shortie HU - because we have a hand significantly stronger than random. SB will likely call our push anyway. Heck, I WANT SB to join!! The more the merrier. Might as well present an opportunity for him/you to do it as cheaply as possible. If he pushes over, so be it. We're no worse for wear. But you do need to get involved in this hand, it's strong enough. BB doubling when you don't...getting raped through the blinds...this will be a not-so-fun fold fest ITM.

[/ QUOTE ]

i believe that bluefeet is 10000000% right. limp is i think infinitely better than pushing.

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you do when SB completes, and then pushes an A72 flop (or any other flop you whiff)?

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
What do you do when SB completes, and then pushes an A72 flop (or any other flop you whiff)?

[/ QUOTE ]

how often do you think a player at the $22s does that without an ace?

Not too often, but it's a crappy spot. Especially when BB has 72o and you fold the runner-runner straight. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

So let's say the flop is something raggy like 962. Then what do you do?

[tom441lbk]

Citanul,


PICK ME PICK ME PICK ME

my oppinion: never


You're Welcome,


LBK

[citanul]

tom: yeah, that's about what i'd expect too.

continuing: if the flop came all raggedy and the big stack pushed, i'd make a decision. i might fold, who knows. i doubt it though. do remember that sometimes you're going to hit hte flop and get the double up nicely.

c

I ask in all seriousness. I was going to post that originally if you limp you have to be willing to call any SB push, pre- or post-flop. Pre-flop, obviously, but as I thought about it I wasn't as sure about post-flop.

I think folding to post-flop action of any kind is suspect though. If SB has a hand and bets it, you're probably going out 3rd a lot of the time even with just K-high, and you're not coming back very often from 314 chips to do better than that anyway (especially throwing in the times SB pushes you off a hand that would have busted BB or picked up an extra 314 cushion vs his all-in).

Is the better question how often does SB fold to your push here pre-flop? Hero's decision is a lot easier if SB will call any two pre-flop.

[citanul]

the plan of "limp, never fold" is an incredibly good one, that if you used in this spot you would lose incredibly little equity over any plan that includes ever folding. however, pushing i believe to be clearly worse, as the sb might fold.

c

[FlyWf]

I doubt that any plan that involves folding even once at any stage is better than one that only includes checking and calling. There will be a sidepot if SB comes along, he's a big stack, and betting at the flop by the SB could be a bluff from either a smart or a stupid player. Folding leaves you with 2 BB and thus no FE, KJo ain't a bad hand to leave on.

I doubt it changes anything but I should have mentioned that the sb has been playing too tight so far and that I’ve been quiet as well, so I’m guessing he’ll fold to a push quite a bit.

Honestly I never even thought about limping, but I can definetly see the reasoning behind it. But, as far as post flop (assuming sb limps) do you guys really think that sb will never bluff at it? I’ve seen a lot of bizarre bluffs at dry side pots in these things that make absolutely no sense, so I wouldn’t entirely rule that out here. Ciaran brought up a good point as well that we will still beat the bb often enough that I think I would call a flop push no matter what.

[bluefeet]

It just doesn't matter if he bluffs at it. What two conditions are present when he pushes the flop?

- he has a legitimate but vulnerable hand, one likely to beat BB
- he has crap, donking without a sidepot

"limp, never fold"

If he has a hand great, he likely beats BB...beating us is academic in our PRIMARY concern in ensuring BB's demise.

If he doesn't have a hand, no problem. We haven't gone anywhere. Our hand is still racing vs. BB, now with a chance to double-up+.