5 handed Q3s

[baronzeus]

what streets do you play differently? any value in the river? i have a few thoughts but i'd like to see your thoughts before i share them

villain is like 30/15/1.5, pretty decent postflop.

Ultimate Bet 80/160 Hold'em (5 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter (http://www.pokerhand.org)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, MP folds, <font color="#CC3333">SB caps</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (7.50 BB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (9.50 BB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 9.50 BB

[ArturiusX]

Dynamic 3-bet on the flop. I really like it.

[Subfallen]

what about raising the turn and folding to a 3-bet

i would bet the river

[etizzle]

i think you botched this one, but its not a disaster. Preflop is not good, you're gonna need one more player in before you can call this one. 57s or other hands that can flop more than a crappy top pair are a lot more playable here than Q3s.

That said, its probably only slightly less than breakeven. Peter_Rus says he can break even against 2 opponents but I dont think this is a very good spot. You're OOP against a good/decent player and youre hand is toward the bottom end of the suited hands Peter analyzed IMO.

I think you can find a bet on this river. He has no reason not to keep firing if he has a Q, and you have an easy easy fold to a c/r. I would bet.

flop/turn look good.

[baronzeus]

im not keen on folding this one preflop (because im so used to autocalling here), but you may be right based on what you say.

anyhow, on to the hand. what sorts of hands am i getting value from on the river?

and subfallen, i think i like a turn raise too, but i am sometimes too weak to fold to a 3bet which makes me not want to raise. /images/graemlins/frown.gif a byproduct of running bad.

[wheelz]

oops i thought he was unknown, that can't be right

i'm not sure what he's calling with there preflop, but what better hands wouldn't he bet the river with? do you think maybe he has a better Q but he wants to induce a bluff from a flush draw or something?

maybe he caught a pair with his flush draw...

[Spicymoose]

I know you are sometimes ahead on the flop, but it is going to cost a ton to get to showdown with a hand that is behind a lot. Why not just fold the flop? Once you decide to play, I like the rest of the hand.

[smurfitup]

[ QUOTE ]


anyhow, on to the hand. what sorts of hands am i getting value from on the river?



[/ QUOTE ]

heart draw w/ a 6... some heart draw w/ a t or j that decided to go crazy on the flop and now wants to showdown for free. if the guy c-r the river you're obviously beat, but it looks like he has missed hearts w/ a pair.

[Trix]

I probably bet the flop since I bet alot of hands here.
I´m with you on the rest of the hand, when he caps, you still can´t fold, so you either call down or pop the turn if you dont think he will be cabable of 3betting you lighter. If you think he will bet the river regardless, then there is less reason to raise on the turn.

At first I thought the rivercheck was standard as he may have a better Q, KQ/Q9 or a flushdraw, but the thing is, there is a fair ammount of flushdraws that have paired here and probably call due to the potsize, KJhh,KThh,J9hh,T9hh,T8hh, maybe A6hh, so it seems closer.
The KQ he should valuebet, but he doesn´t look like the most aggro guy, so he may not. Q9 he may not even play(preflop), perhaps the 2 suited versions and he seems more like a guy who would go call-down mode after your flop 3-bet with those, so we can´t weigh that too high either.

Overall, I think you have a bet and hope he isn´t tricky enough to CR you off it or too often with better hands.

[imitation]

I dislike preflop, I feel that you have enough value in a river bet. I think the rest of the hand is pretty standard.

[DeathDonkey]

Well lots of people want to bet the river but I think the check is good. He knows what you have and you said he's decent. I don't think he's going to satisfy his curiousity if he missed his draw. The turn is the interesting one to me but I would have just called too. I would have figured he will bet the river even if he misses so I still get the same value - of course I would have been wrong, but I would absolutely hate getting 3 bet and not getting to showdown with this hand.

-DeathDonkey

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]
Well lots of people want to bet the river but I think the check is good. He knows what you have and you said he's decent. I don't think he's going to satisfy his curiousity if he missed his draw. The turn is the interesting one to me but I would have just called too. I would have figured he will bet the river even if he misses so I still get the same value - of course I would have been wrong, but I would absolutely hate getting 3 bet and not getting to showdown with this hand.


[/ QUOTE ]

my thoughts exactly

[TStoneMBD]

here are some thoughts.

if you dont feel you can fold after he caps the flop its because you think hell be on a heart draw or have gotten crazy with a 6/PP some of the time. after the river comes and he checks it doesnt make any sense for him to have checked the river unless he was planning on checkraising you in which case you have an easy fold.

it looks more like he was on a draw and spiked a ten on the river and thought hed give you a chance to check your queen or bet your flush draw. he may have also given up with a 6/PP type hand.

therefore id shove some chips in the middle

SB's flop c/r is not a draw raise, it's a raise to drive people out. Maybe he has a 6, so the 3-bet is ok. But when he caps the flop and then leads the turn, yeesh. At that point player reads take over -- I mean SPECIFIC player reads, like will he cap here with less than TPGK? I guess that without a read I'd probably fold the turn. If I got to the river I'd probably check it through out of confusion as much as anything else, but it's close.

[Grisgra]

[ QUOTE ]
SB's flop c/r is not a draw raise, it's a raise to drive people out. Maybe he has a 6, so the 3-bet is ok. But when he caps the flop and then leads the turn, yeesh. At that point player reads take over -- I mean SPECIFIC player reads, like will he cap here with less than TPGK? I guess that without a read I'd probably fold the turn. If I got to the river I'd probably check it through out of confusion as much as anything else, but it's close.

[/ QUOTE ]

Excellent analysis.

[Lmn55d]

Hock, I kind of disagree with your claim that sb's checkraise is not a draw checkraise. This guy seems a little on the passive side so maybe you're right. But I think a lot of unknowns will raise a flush draw to improve their chances of winning the pot unimproved or to "clean up outs." It's not as though the flop was QQ6r. In that spot a checkraise would definitely be a hand protection checkraise.

I think you make some good points, but I don't think we should rule out a flush draw entirely.

[Victor]

bet the river and expect to be called with 77-99?

[MarkD]

[ QUOTE ]
SB's flop c/r is not a draw raise, it's a raise to drive people out. Maybe he has a 6, so the 3-bet is ok. But when he caps the flop and then leads the turn, yeesh. At that point player reads take over -- I mean SPECIFIC player reads, like will he cap here with less than TPGK? I guess that without a read I'd probably fold the turn. If I got to the river I'd probably check it through out of confusion as much as anything else, but it's close.

[/ QUOTE ]

For a lot of these reasons I think I would be folding the flop. I may have bet out here, but as the hand played out I have top pair no kicker against a hand that is at worst mid pair over card kicker (5 outs) and at best a queen that dominates me. It may also be a big draw like pair + flush draw.

I'm not sure that our flop equity justifies the amount of bets we will need to put into this pot to get to a showdown. I think I fold the flop. If there had not been a pre-flop raise, and the flop action was the same, I would definitely fold.

I agree that folding the flop here would be just fine -- maybe even the best play for exactly the reasons you mention -- but 3-betting isn't terrible.

[TStoneMBD]

im ok with calling the flop with your 3 outter and perhaps hell check a flush draw on the turn sometimes. however, i really dont think we can expect him to cap a flush draw out of position or a weaker hand that QQ all that often. i would have also folded the turn unless i had a reason not to.

[MarkD]

Hock,

I agree that 3-betting isn't terrible. It is the only other play that I would make on this flop, with this action. I think folding and 3-betting are close.

I think that after we 3-bet and he caps then you are exactly right on the turn... we need a specific read to properly play in this spot. I don't think I am good enough to properly play the turn after the flop action and turn bet. The turn lead creates a very difficult position for us. I wish I could make the right decisions in this spot, but I don't believe that I am that good... this fact argues that I am better off to simply fold this flop - maybe the original poster is too?

[Trix]

I really dont see why it can´t be.

[TheMetetron]

I fold preflop without one more player in.

I also probably fold the flop. 3-bet isn't bad though.

I think the turn is definitely where I fold, however.

If I got to the river, I check behind.

[MarkD]

[ QUOTE ]
im ok with calling the flop with your 3 outter and perhaps hell check a flush draw on the turn sometimes. however, i really dont think we can expect him to cap a flush draw out of position or a weaker hand that QQ all that often. i would have also folded the turn unless i had a reason not to.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm talking about folding to the initial check raise. After we three bet and he caps it then I think we can peel one off on the flop.

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]
Hock, I kind of disagree with your claim that sb's checkraise is not a draw checkraise. This guy seems a little on the passive side so maybe you're right. But I think a lot of unknowns will raise a flush draw to improve their chances of winning the pot unimproved or to "clean up outs." It's not as though the flop was QQ6r. In that spot a checkraise would definitely be a hand protection checkraise.

I think you make some good points, but I don't think we should rule out a flush draw entirely.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, its a pretty good board to c/r if you have a flush draw

[baronzeus]

well to me his flop c/r screamed good 6 or flush draw, or possibly a queen. after he raised i decided the pot was big enough that i could 3betand try to get MP to fold his overs.

i REALLY don't like folding the turn after check/3betting the flop. sure there is very little that i'm ahead of besides flush draws, but a monster will very rarely checkraise isolate that flop, especially in such an aggressive game where he can get tons of extra bets later in the hand.


on the turn my hand hovered over the raise button but after a few seconds i just hit call, because i really didnt want to get 3bet. im not happy with my inability to fold recently which is part of the reason i just called.


on the river, again, my hand hovered over the bet button but then i just checked. He showed Ah6h and MHIG. i'm not sure if he would have paid off the river, but i think he pretty much never checkraises me so i could have bet.

[etizzle]

[ QUOTE ]
but i think he pretty much never checkraises me so i could have bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is the key. When he checks the river I dont know wtf he has, but you usually have the best hand. And he wont ever c/r with something that you beat (not after this kind of action). And if he has a pair he almost always pays it off IMO, although he probably shouldnt.

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
i really dont think we can expect him to cap a flush draw out of position or a weaker hand that QQ all that often.

[/ QUOTE ]

well, i can tell you that many if not most of the players at this limit DO indeed cap flush draws on the flop, even OOP. why? who knows. they are somewhat laggy to begin with. in general the game is too aggressive to "find folds" with tpnk.

I like the entire hand just the way it is.

Preflop isn't a bad call like everyone says. You're getting 5-1 with a suited queen, no good?

Flop is fine. You're around 50/50 to be good against SB's range and you have plenty of dead money in the pot. His cap screams flush draw, but his c/r doesn't, so who knows.

The turn is fine. Can't put 2 SB bets in preflop, 4 SB in on the flop, then fold for 1 BB on the turn with top pair on a rag board. That's just silly. If SB capped with a FD, I don't think anyone can seriously expect a turn check too often.

On the river, it's looks like you're ahead unless he's getting tricky. But, most of the hands you're ahead of can't pay a river bet. A check behind is fine.

[ggbman]

[ QUOTE ]
im not keen on folding this one preflop (because im so used to autocalling here), but you may be right based on what you say.

anyhow, on to the hand. what sorts of hands am i getting value from on the river?

/images/graemlins/frown.gif a byproduct of running bad.

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JESUS STFU

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
JESUS STFU

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/images/graemlins/heart.gif

dont worry it will turn around next week when you make another 100K /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ggbman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
JESUS STFU

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/heart.gif

dont worry it will turn around next week when you make another 100K /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Not gonna hapene i suck at poekr. Also animal dcotor will runner runner me again, Also i alsi i am somewhar durnk now