Live 5-150 hand, rivered flush against a tricky agro

[Percula]

Live 5-150 spread limit game. Villian is a smart thinking player. He is pretty agro, I have seen him raise big with air and the nuts. He has about $800 behind. I have been playing tight and agro. I haven't been playing many hands and haven't shown down any hands while the villian has been at the table. I have not been in a pot with the villian, but the table is giving me a lot of respect and he has noticed it. The game has been playing tight/passive to LP to LAG.

PF I am the BB with 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif and it is a limped family pot (rare, normally there is a raise). Villian is in CO.

Flop: ($45) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gifT/images/graemlins/club.gif2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, it checks around.

Turn: ($45) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, it checks around. I see the villian before his action grab a stack and cut out $45 and I "arrange" my stacks for a $100 raise, he sees this and checks.

River: K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, I see villian is ready to bet this and plan a CR and it checks to the villian, he leads for $40, folds to me, I RR to $150, folds back to villian who RR to $300.

From watching the villian I have somewhat picked up a tell when his is strong and sure enough he is showing that tell. Based on the limited action I can not reasonably put him on a hand range. I know he feels strong, but does he have the flush, str8 or maybe two pair, I am sure he does not have top pair or top two.

CRF?

[yvesaint]

ummm call? unless hes real fishy, hes not calling another raise with anything less than MAYBE top straight

[PokerFink]

I don't see why you would raise the river. Just call it.

[Garland]

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Based on the limited action I can not reasonably put him on a hand range. I know he feels strong, but does he have the flush, str8 or maybe two pair, I am sure he does not have top pair or top two.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you can...

It should be pretty clear by the action that he doesn't have two pair. Evidence is mounting: If he had a T, he would have bet the flop. If he had two pair on the turn, he would have bet regardless if you were threatening to check-raise or not. The only semi-reasonable hand that rivers two pair is K8. In addition no thinking sane player with any two pair hand will give you this much action on the river.

It's pretty simple: He has a QJ for a straight, or he made a diamond flush too. I think even the straight has to respect 3 diamonds on board and will just call your river check-raise, so I'm going on the assumption he has a flush, but keep in mind you have a fairly strong flush, one that beats many of his possibilities.

Actually it's kind of moot. You're given 495:150 pot odds. You have to call here, but you cannot re-raise if that's what you're thinking. Be thankful this isn't no-limit where a push by him will force you to make a real decision.

Garland

[Percula]

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I think you can...

It should be pretty clear by the action that he doesn't have two pair. Evidence is mounting: If he had a T, he would have bet the flop. If he had two pair on the turn, he would have bet regardless if you were threatening to check-raise or not. The only semi-reasonable hand that rivers two pair is K8. In addition no thinking sane player with any two pair hand will give you this much action on the river.

It's pretty simple: He has a QJ for a straight, or he made a diamond flush too. I think even the straight has to respect 3 diamonds on board and will just call your river check-raise, so I'm going on the assumption he has a flush, but keep in mind you have a fairly strong flush, one that beats many of his possibilities.

Actually it's kind of moot. You're given 495:150 pot odds. You have to call here, but you cannot re-raise if that's what you're thinking. Be thankful this isn't no-limit where a push by him will force you to make a real decision.

Garland

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What makes me unsure of his range is his past action in a similar situation where he raised like this with air. He RR a river HU and was RR and insta mucked. I also seen him make a river RR and as soon as the other player called he insta mucked.

I agree if he is being straight forward and not making a move then he only has two hands the straight or a flush. If he has the flush his range is pretty wide and I am likely ahead.

I am thinking a raise is the line here. There is a fair amount of value in not showning down my hand. I have been running over the table when I have been in a hand and I have been able to pickup several pots with air as a result. The 9 high flush would cut into that image, even though it shouldn't it would.

[tdomeski]

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Turn: ($45) A, it checks around. I see the villian before his action grab a stack and cut out $45 and I "arrange" my stacks for a $100 raise, he sees this and checks.


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That move actually works?

[Percula]

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Turn: ($45) A, it checks around. I see the villian before his action grab a stack and cut out $45 and I "arrange" my stacks for a $100 raise, he sees this and checks.


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That move actually works?

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We were watching each other quite a bit. He was the best player at the table, I am sure he seen me as the same. We were also the two largest stacks at the table, therefore we paid attention...

[Garland]

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I am thinking a raise is the line here. T

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I still don't. If he has air, he's just going to muck the the re-raise and the value you get is to not showdown your hand. Not totally insignificant, but still that doesn't compensate for the times he's going to re-raise you and you have to call, and that is with any flush that beats you except perhaps J-high. I still don't think your hand is strong enough to pump another raise...

Garland

[jrforman]

Just call the reraise on the river. For some of the reasons already mentioned, re-raising seems futile. You are not going to be called by any two pair hand and almost certainly not call by any str8. The only range of hands your beating here is a smaller flush which is possible but Villain probably doesnt have smaller flush enough times to make a push or big reraise +EV.

[yvesaint]

wait, so he's capable of bluff-raising the river?

soooooo.....WHY do you want to raise again? you realize he'll fold his bluffs (cant bluff-call can ya) and call with stuff that beats you

[Percula]

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wait, so he's capable of bluff-raising the river?

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Oh yes, very capable. Most of the table has not caught on to it, but myself and another stronger player has.

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soooooo.....WHY do you want to raise again? you realize he'll fold his bluffs (cant bluff-call can ya) and call with stuff that beats you

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Because I do not want to showdown the hand. I want him to see monsters under the bed and anyone else that is paying attention, which is most of the table.

[Garland]

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Because I do not want to showdown the hand.

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I know you said there's value to not showing hands, and I agree with that...but what about the value of seeing his? If you just call and he shows a bluff, it will do wonders for the game. If he mucks immediately out of embarrassment (or simply conceding), then you win the pot and still won't have to show your hand.

Garland

[Percula]

Anybody lead the turn here?

[Percula]

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Because I do not want to showdown the hand.

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I know you said there's value to not showing hands, and I agree with that...but what about the value of seeing his? If you just call and he shows a bluff, it will do wonders for the game. If he mucks immediately out of embarrassment (or simply conceding), then you win the pot and still won't have to show your hand.

Garland

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We are on the same page then. I called the RR. I dont want to give results yet.

It is just post session when I was replaying the hand in my head I was thinking it might be better to RR and force a muck.

[yvesaint]

i still dont see why you want to force a muck. what meta-game reasons do you have for that? it cant be any value reasons, because this is a classic "fold out worse hands", "get called/raised by better hands" sort of situation

all rivers are wa/wb /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Percula]

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i still dont see why you want to force a muck. what meta-game reasons do you have for that? it cant be any value reasons, because this is a classic "fold out worse hands", "get called/raised by better hands" sort of situation

all rivers are wa/wb /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

This player is the strongest player on the table from my point of view (I do not think he is stronger than myself). I want him to question his big air bluffs against me.

At this point in the session I have not been in enough hands, my image is getting too tight to get action. Which is good in moderate portions, but bad in large amounts. Nothing like picking up AA and raising only to have everyone fold.

I am going to have to switch gears here pretty soon or get a table change, and I do not want to do that with 3 ATMs on the table calling down with second pair on cordinated boards. So when I switch to sLAG I do not want to be facing these big river raises from him, I want him scared of me but a little tilted, tilted enough to play back against me before the river, but scared to make big moves on the river.

[ahnuld]

Reraising looks like pure spewage to me. Only called by worse hands.

[Bukem_]

Hello.

It's 5-150 spread limit. YOu have 3 donkey ATMs on the table.

Show your hand, don't FPS, play more pots vs donkey, less vs tricky solid player.

[flawless_victory]

seems like you are obsessed w/ your image and fancy reads/angles.
you are in big trouble.
just call river reraise, anything else is retarded unless you are against a complete psycho. if u dont want to show this hand, you are just an idiot. any rational u have is just wrong. sorry dude.

[tdomeski]

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seems like you are obsessed w/ your image and fancy reads/angles.

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word.

[Lucky]

just call reraise. Also, I like just betting river. Maybe you get a couple of calls. Also, if you get raised, you figure he has flush, call and have played about as big a pot as you were planning to play with small flush in family pot, albeit on you backdoored.

[ansky451]

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Because I do not want to showdown the hand. I want him to see monsters under the bed and anyone else that is paying attention, which is most of the table.

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Not enough of a factor IMO.

[soah]

[ QUOTE ]
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Turn: ($45) A, it checks around. I see the villian before his action grab a stack and cut out $45 and I "arrange" my stacks for a $100 raise, he sees this and checks.


[/ QUOTE ]

That move actually works?

[/ QUOTE ]

We were watching each other quite a bit. He was the best player at the table, I am sure he seen me as the same. We were also the two largest stacks at the table, therefore we paid attention...

[/ QUOTE ]

If he was scared away from betting the turn for fear of a raise, but then goes ahead and shoves as much money as possible in the pot on the river, that would tend to indicate pretty strongly that he likes his hand a LOT more on the river than he did on the turn. And if he's even remotely competent, he should understand that your turn antics were most likely designed to to prevent him from betting (unless he actually believes that your telegraph was completely accidental, which seems a bit dubious). He has a pretty good reason to believe you've made a flush now.

Try to play this hand from your opponent's point of view where you hold a set or two pair and see if it makes any sense. The only possible justification I can think of would be that he didn't want your checkraise to knock out all the fish, and decided to let you lead the river into them. But would he reraise after the flush card hits? I still don't think that's good news.