20/40, hands like this are killing me - Q6s blind war

[Surfbullet]

Villain is 40/15 over not-so-many hands, looks like your average too-loose, too-aggro 20/40er.

Party Poker 20/40 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Surf is BB with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">7 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, Surf calls.

Flop: (4 SB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Surf raises</font>, SB calls.

Turn: (4 BB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Surf bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, Surf calls.

River: (8 BB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Surf folds.

Final Pot: 9 BB

A few things happened here.
1. I gave away the initiative (again)
2. I blanked my draw
3. I didn't put the last bet/raise in

Gimme a better line / plan. These HU hands are killing me.

Surf

Other than peeling the spade more often there's nothing to suggest, really.

[Lmn55d]

yea i've started to cut back on semibluffing against these guys who never fold but I think you have enough folding equity to make this flop raise/turn bet play, combined with the fact that you sometimes actually have the best hand. The T kind of sucks because a lot of his hands picked up a straight draw but I'd still bet it.

Nothing you can do here. You played it fine.

1. You didn't give away the initiative. He took it because he happened to have a hand.

2. You did blank your draw. Sucks.

3. You put the minimum amount of aggression into this hand. And that's just fine agaisnt an over-aggro opponent when you don't have a hand. Any less aggression and you would have been just calling him till the river, and that's just weak poker heads up in the blinds.

[Rubeskies]

The only other way to play this is to call the flop and raise any turn. Looks a bit scarier but I still don't think you're going to get him to fold many hands you want him to fold.

This line will also gets you 3-bet on the turn sometimes which really sucks.

[Subfallen]

i would take the free card here and i don't understand why other people don't

it's just that nobody seems to fold A-high when there's a flush draw on board

[Spicymoose]

This seems fine. The only other possible change you can make is checking the turn. Lets try to figure out what that would do.

Assuming you will get check raised, you have about 20% equity. Putting in 2 BB, but only withdrawing .8BB means that if you knew you were going to be checkraised, and be behind, you are costing yourself 1.2 BB.

If you are behind, and don't get check raised, but get called, you are still costing yourself .6 BB.

If he is on a draw, and you give him the free card, he probably has around 5 outs, or less. That means you are giving away 10% of a 4 BB pot, or .4 BB.

If he is on a draw, and you bet, you are picking up .8 BB.

I don't know how to weight which of these is happening often. But if he is one to often check raise the turn with any sort of pair, I think you might want to check through.

[Wynton]

I don't see how you can be faulted, when these opponents often will call the flop raise, but then fold to a continuation turn bet.

At least I don't see fault without a more specific history against this player.

[imitation]

you could call the flop, call the turn and re-evaluate after the river depending on the board. I don't see why it's such a horrid idea.

[gaming_mouse]

Surf,

If the LAG will likely be c/raising or folding, betting this turn will cost you an avg of 1.6 BB if he doesn't fold. Since folding him wins you 4 BB, you need him to fold about (1.6/4) ~ 40% of the time.

You can adjust this number down a bit to account for the times he just calls, but this should help you see that a bet on the turn is likely the wrong move against this type of player.

gm

[joseki]

Take the free card? Not many other options available, eh?

[Grisgra]

I feel your pain. I've played it the same way countless times, and gotten burned countless times. And it seems the few times I've 3-bet the turn in a tilty LAG fit I've almost always gotten burned and the guy calls me down with his weak king or his JT or even his ace or god knows what. But a 3-bet on the turn or a river raise when the ace hits only has to work 20% of the time or so to be worth the extra investment . . .

Ugh. It seems that whether or not I have position in these blind wars, I end up playing fit-or-fold or spewing countless chips. Doesn't happen at 10/20. Happens all the time at 20/40. They can't hit EVERY hand, can they?

Good post since this situation comes up so often.

First, you didn't "give away the initiative," it was taken from you. There's a big difference, since the latter much more often means that he's got something.

Second, and this goes with the first, since he's got something and you've got Q high, you lose. Good players minimize the amount they lose in these situations. Folding isn't a sin, it just starts to drive you nuts when it seems like you're constantly whiffing and having to fold and get paranoid and think that everyone has just pegged you as weak tight and is running over you with nothing.

Third, sometimes donking the flop isn't such a bad line, since it often folds Ax or whatever, whereas those hands seem to think that it's necessary to call if c/red (and they are getting better odds on their call, so it's not entirely crazy). Also, it saves you one SB when you get raised on the turn.

Finally, and I'm pretty sure you do this anyway, but if you're going to c/r flops in these situations you have to do it with big hands sometimes as well.

[Lmn55d]

my boy had position!

Technicalities.

Im not calling Q6s preflop personally, but if your that good, have fun with it...

I mean I realize its the blinds, but I love waitiing for an AQs type hand, just overcalling his SB raise, then railing 3bet to his turn CR...
Blind defense can be costly, are you leaking a [censored] ton of money through your blinds? Check Pt, I was...

Turn im taking the free card, who knows what this guys range is, and his aggression screams scheck raise which you cant risk..
river obvious fold
keep in mind that your drawing heads up, and even paying double bets for it. this is just bad business, the implied odds suck too
cdl

[Grisgra]

[ QUOTE ]
Im not calling Q6s preflop personally, but if your that good, have fun with it...

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not like he's facing a raise from UTG. This is an SB or, his range for raising there is immense.

[sy_or_bust]

If you fold preflop, you're getting run over.

[Victor]

q6s is a monster hand here.

[Surfbullet]

Thanks for the input guys.

In retrospect, I think a turn check was in order on *this* turn. The T makes so many hands that would have folded a blank turn into calling hands w/ gutshots, oesd, pairs, etc, that I think I can check it behind and reevaluate on the river. Gaming_mouse's calculations were good and I'll keep that in mind in the future. A J would also be a bad turn card to bet, though I'd probably bet any non-J or T b/c i retain most of the folding equity my flop raise generated.

as Hock_ and Grisgra alluded to, it can be stymieing to have to keep folding UI(though correct-i've spewed here with a turn 3bet or river raise just like gris), especially when it feels like I never hit the draw...they can't have it every time, right? Somitems he'll have c/r'd me on the turn with an OESD...because there's no way they always have a good pair w/ the amount these guys give action.

My biggest worry at the 20 game is that i'm getting run over... from an objective standpoint I know I read hands well enough to take bottom pair to showdown when i think it's +EV, so it's not like i'm sitting around waiting for TPTK, but it can be tough when you are blanking alot of hands to remember that.

Surf

I think the obvious line HU is to call the flop and raise the turn (ideally on a scary card). I take this line frequently against somebody who will autoraise my blind on ace-rag but will fold without a pair, or somebody who will check-fold fourth street. Sometimes you need to bet the busted draw on the river. I like raising the hand on 4th street particularly because you will have a ton of outs in order to re-bet on the river if you hit.