LIVE 20 9Ts. KINDA WEIRD.

[flawless_victory]

kinda stressed so im trying to play some live lately.
local 20/40 game.. most of the plyrs are regs. they all know me and some think im loud and FOS/overagg, but i also get respect in a lot spots (they know i play fairly good, etc.)

4 or limpers to me on the button w/9sTs, i raise.
all the limpers are loose and mediocre to bad postflop.
the BB calls and first 2limpers call when the crazy thai gamerunner decides to make it threebets (absolute zero chance of a big hand)... last limper calls, i cap that sh.t they all call.
6way, i think.

flop KdJd2c
all check to me, i check it.

turn Ks
checkcheckcheckcheck, to LP on my right.
LP may be steaming a bit, shes losing. ive played w/ her in bigger local PLO games. she is a recreational plyr, but not clueless.
she bets, i raise intending to follow through on river if HU.

no automatic plays this hand, i had a detable decision every time it was on me so maybe this is interesting, not sure.

[TStoneMBD]

preflop and flop look good to me. your turn line is something only you could know is right in the heat of the moment but looks bad on paper.

[CardSharpCook]

Yeah, given your read, I like the play. Of course, you toss on the river if any other player comes along for the ride.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

did you consider a line where you just called this turn bet and then bet the river if checked to? (or raise if bet to?)

[flawless_victory]

i didnt consider that, although that is interesting.
there still four players behind me who coull call w/ alot of bs that they will def fold for two bets... these guiys are loose, they love to call.
also, i didnt know what she would need to call me down if i raised the turn, but i thought there was some chance she would fold as good as JTish. im not raising hoping thats here hand, just saying its def possible. nobody would ever check/fold something like that on a blank river.

With four limps in front you probably don't have the best hand (You might have a little pot equity but it's very likely to swing wildly on the flop). Poor players pick up mitts just as often as good players do. At least one of the four rates to have one.

Is raising preflop with 109s here easy? If someone comes over the top do you still think you have the best hand? Or do you make it four just for show?

This seems like a very volatile way to play a speculative hand.

Limp preflop and you are fine. See the flop and your line would be clear. Let the others wonder where they stand while they act before you.

Jam preflop and the flop gets checked to you and most of the time you have no clue where you stand. One advantage to your line is that you can check behind and see the turn, but is that worth 4x preflop investment?

There is now a huge pot which will force the players to play similarly which means little to no chance to outplay them. Then the flop comes down and your pot equity might go way up but it's far more likely to go way down (medium TP w/lame kicker very multiway in a huge pot is a recipe for more mistakes which means you need straight/flush chances further demonstrating the speculative nature of your hand). Seems like you are gambling with gamblers (for four bets each instead of one) while you have no edge. Are you getting them to play your game or have they gotten you to play theirs?

[CardSharpCook]

Bobby, I agree with you. If you are a TAG this is a poor way to play this hand. However, frequently raising a lot of speculative hands as well as your premium hands can create a very lucrative situation. This is the type of player that flawless is. It is more profitable than the TAG way, if done correctly.

It is, btw, too wild for me. I stick with TAG.

I like the play PF. When checked to, I figure someone has a hand or they all whiffed, usually it's a whif. I'd bet this flop and if got called in more than one spot would check/fold the turn.

Did the river brick?


Tex

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
Did the river brick?


[/ QUOTE ]
we didnt see a river. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[ QUOTE ]
... frequently raising a lot of speculative hands as well as your premium hands can create a very lucrative situation. This is the type of player that flawless is. It is more profitable than the TAG way, if done correctly.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am well aware that flawless is cut from a different cloth. I am usually amazed at the way he plays a lot of hands. When I first started reading his posts I thought he was being sarcastic. Then it slowly dawned on me ... he really plays this way!

So, if you agree with my assessment that in this situation 109s is probably not best, does the money gained from jamming against inferior hands compensate for what is lost to superior hand/s plus what is lost post-flop? Does this line's deception value gained outweigh the practical difficulty of going against the grain of the hand type and its "correct" play?

In other words, is the EV for jamming greater than the EV for limping? I still doubt that it is, but I would welcome any attemp to convince me otherwise.

[bambi]

everyone has limped preflop, there isnt a hand out there that has you severly in trouble, your pot equity whilst thin but combined with position makes this raise +Ev especially if you have a good table image.

The turn raise as said is up to you, many things come into play, do the players behind you look uninterested etc? but i am sure you think this is a +ev raise so i will agree

[JasonP530]

Lp should know you have zero. You bet any pair or draw on the flop since the pot is enormous. You dont have quads or a full house for a check on the flop in that pot. I'd 3 bet you with any hand I would bet if I were LP

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
You bet any pair or draw on the flop since the pot is enormous.

[/ QUOTE ]this is exactly why i might not bet any draw or pair on the flop.