TP+OESD 3-way, min bet into me and PFR

[TheWorstPlayer]

Min bettor is 55/8/40 VPIP/PFR/WTSD. Total loose/passive calling station. PFR is 30/10/30 kinda loose, kinda passive, kinda calling station but also kinda aggro postflop. Sorta non-descript bad player. But not terrible. What to do on this flop?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ TWP (6 max, 5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

SB ($564.30)
TWP ($846.25)
UTG ($85)
MP ($341.60)
Button ($464.20)

Preflop: TWP is BB with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. SB posts a blind of $2.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises to $8</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB (poster) calls $6, TWP calls $4.

Flop: ($24) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets $4</font>, TWP...?

[jjb108]

I like a bet here because if you make your straight its likely to shut everyone down. Can't count on MP to raise it up so I bet (I bet 3/4 pot alot) but 1/2 pot seems good here. If MP has a piece, he's coming along and you can try and take it down on the turn.

[TheWorstPlayer]

You see that there already WAS a bet, right? Are you saying I should raise? Or did you think it was checked to me?

[jjb108]

Sorry...raise to half the total with the $4 bet...call it $15.

[-Skeme-]

I'd want to raise to shut out MP or at least slow him down, but do not want to get reraised and blown off my decent hand and draw. Also do not want to just call and get raised. Tricky situation indeed. Maybe raise a little and respond to their moves?

[wdeadwyler]

Isnt this a clear raise? Does this guy have a history of minbet/3betting.

Villain raised preflop so he could have nething from kk to 10A, lets narrow his range with a raise and see how he responds.

I pop it to 20-24 here.

[TheWorstPlayer]

OK, I know this hand is [censored] weird, but just to clarify because it seems like there is some confusion: this hand is 3-way. MP (the 30/10 guy) OPEN MIN-RAISED preflop. No idea what that means for this particular guy. Use your own experience of open min-raising in MP. Then SB (the 50/8 guy) MIN BET the flop. No idea what that means for this particular guy. Use your own experience of min-betting.

Sorry. I know this hand is retarded. It just gets worse from here, wait until you see what happened. Thanks for the comments so far. Just wanted to make sure that my opponents' retardation did not confused anyone. There is a lot of min-betting going on.

[TheWorstPlayer]

Why? And what do you do if MP cold calls and SB re-raises? What do you do is MP re-raises? What's your plan for the turn if it is 3-way? Come on, man, lay some logic on me.

[jjb108]

I say TWP is ahead here most times. MP is "non descript bad player." With this read, I not worried about a reraise. I read kind of aggro as stabbing at pots.

If he reraises say pot sized we're priced in. Still plenty of stack to take it down on the turn. And TWP can always spike and A.

I was waiting for you to tell me what their response was, as you most likely did what I said to. I am hoping for MP to fold, and SB to call with his pair+draw. If MP repops me (is he minraising me?) and sb calls, I may peel a card depending on odds, or I may just go away. If MP calls, and SB repops after making that minbet, I go away. If they both call, and I don't hit the turn, and SB checks, I think I check as well. I think SB will have a pair + a draw here most of the time but KJ/KT are very possible given his donk numbers, and theres really no telling what MP could have at this time. He could be min-raising with any two he felt like playing at the time.

[soah]

I usually raise to to $16 or $20 here. I don't want to blow worse queens out completely, but I don't want them to get half the pot for free either. If you call, the third dude can call $4 as well with all sorts of crap that has some outs against you (55, T7s). He could also raise with a wide range of hands, thinking he needs to protect a hand worse than yours. While I like KQ on this board, I don't like a big pot out of position where I'm not the aggessor. A raise to $16 will give you a much better feel of what you're up against, and it will adequately protect your hand in the likely event that you're way ahead.

[jjb108]

My motto...fear the minraise and ignore the minbet.

MPs minraise in 6 max. doesn't mean anthing to me. He's got 2 cards that are sooted or add up to 15+.

Minbet by SB means he has a piece or undercards or JT or something.

At this point with a nut draw, I like a raise to build pot when winning. If MP raises, we're likely calling being priced in. If MP cold calls and SB raises, we're likely priced in. Hence, the 1/2 pot bet. Spike an A and stack them already.

KK or JJ might bomb this flop after you bet but I'd expect SB to c/r not minbet - 3 bet.

Poker by the short bus crowd...sweet. Can't wait to see this one.

Lets settle on 20$ then, for psychological reasons if anything /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[TheWorstPlayer]

OK more discussion of the OP would be great, but just for fun, here's the next installment. I was so confused that I just flat called the min bet, even though I think raising is better. MP then raised. To $10. SB called. What do I do now?

Well, you had your chance to pop it, now I just call here. Theres still no telling what anyone has. You would at least be getting a general idea had you raised the flop to 20.

[soah]

At this point I'd just call, I think. I'd consider betting almost any turn card though. Except Q, J, or T I guess.

[crosse91]

problem i have with a raise to 16 is that there's now 46 in the pot and only 16 to call to the third player so he's getting 3-1, and the then once it gets back to the sb (or whatever) he'll be getting 12-62 or 12-46 which are pretty good odds (esp. including implied) for them to call with.
I would make a potsized raise, and muck if raised
if called-reeval on the turn card and bet appropriately. If its pretty innocent im betting 1/2 the pot. If its scary i'm betting nothing, and if its great i'm betting 3/4 to pot.

[jjb108]

As played...call the MP raise. A reraise now couldn't possibly represent a hand and I don't know anymore if I want to build the pot. Starting to look like a crappy slowplay by MP. Maybe a really poorly played set or two pair (JT b/c of the pf minraise??).

[-Skeme-]

Obviously call and hit.

[JKratzer]

Raising in the first place would have been better. Fortunately you have a chance to rectify the situation, make about a pot-sized raise. Both opponents look weak so far, I imagine you'll take it down and if you don't you have plenty of outs, especially if you can check behind the turn.

JKratzer

Edited after rereading OP

[Big_Jim]

I raise the flop for a few reasons:

a) You probably have the best hand
b) There are lots of hands that have at least 5 outs against you, or are vying to chop the pot.
c) It's not all that likely that you'll be bluffed off of this pot. PFR has to have a hand to make a move on this board, unless he's a maniac, and the other guy is passive.
d) You will not make any money off your straight when you get it.
e) Possible free card play

Given how you got to the spot your at... I say call, and hope the A comes.

[ajmargarine]

[ QUOTE ]
OK more discussion of the OP would be great, but just for fun, here's the next installment. I was so confused that I just flat called the min bet, even though I think raising is better. MP then raised. To $10. SB called. What do I do now?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmm, when I first read the OP, I was going to say save your raise for this spot that you now describe. Call the minbet, hope for a raise and a call, and NOW raise it up.

[soah]

[ QUOTE ]
problem i have with a raise to 16 is that there's now 46 in the pot and only 16 to call to the third player so he's getting 3-1, and the then once it gets back to the sb (or whatever) he'll be getting 12-62 or 12-46 which are pretty good odds (esp. including implied) for them to call with.
I would make a potsized raise, and muck if raised
if called-reeval on the turn card and bet appropriately. If its pretty innocent im betting 1/2 the pot. If its scary i'm betting nothing, and if its great i'm betting 3/4 to pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Getting 3:1 to call is only useful if you have a draw at something. I don't really see anything with more than five outs here, with very little in the way of implied odds.

[Big_Jim]

[ QUOTE ]
Both opponents look weak so far

[/ QUOTE ]
Admittedly, TWP described villian as both bad and aggressive... but do we really read this weak raise over two opponents as a weak hand?

I would guess that he's got a big one and doesn't want to scare everybody off fairly often.

If he does have a big one... I don't think we have that many outs, and we don't get paid on any of them, we're not even sure which ones are good except for the A, and we're OOP....

[UOPokerPlayer]

I like to make it 25 here. I don't know why though, just standard. If you get called I probably lead the turn for full pot and fold to a raise unless I hit. If I'm in position I may take a free card/induce river bet.

I think flop play you have to raise. You're still ahead of some hands, and you want to make a bare queen pay. Also, a big pot is good when you make this hand.

[greygoo]

Hmm, how often do you check this flop if SB checks? Almost never? I normally raise this one to 25 or 30. We might end up in a sticky spot on thre turn if they both call, but usually there will be no heavy action unless one of them has a monster so you probably get to a relatively cheap showdown with a good chance of taking it down. When MP drops, SB might stay with his weak hand/gutshot and even call a value bet on the river.

Also, I have hard times not raising minbettors =)

[BobboFitos]

make it 35 preflop

if you just called, just call the flop. it will seem very weird. but it's better then making a huge raise, and a small raise makes things very weird. and obviously folding is very wrong.

[TheWorstPlayer]

So I flat called the raise to $10. Turn bring an ace. Flop min-bettor min bets again. This time, I'm afraid of a set behind me somewhat, so I raise pot. MP drops and SB calls. River is a blank. SB pushes, I call, we chop, I suck.

[fuzzbox]

Hehe, I raise this bet until I see Mr. Minbet 3-bet me. Usually it means he is drawing. Pot it, he will call.

Course pfr could have AQ /images/graemlins/wink.gif
What the hell, make it 30 to go. Then at least you will have some idea whats going on.

[fuzzbox]

[ QUOTE ]
OK more discussion of the OP would be great, but just for fun, here's the next installment. I was so confused that I just flat called the min bet, even though I think raising is better. MP then raised. To $10. SB called. What do I do now?

[/ QUOTE ]

Its tough to play against such magnificient play. The raise to 10 is real hard, because its almost a stack decision for you now. 6 more into a 50 pot ... I dont think you have odds to draw, I think you should fold anything other than the nuts.

Ok, just call.

[TheWorstPlayer]

Yeah, my play is bad. But my table selection is great! /images/graemlins/grin.gif