My biggest leak: Playing from the blinds

[Scuba Chuck]

OK, so I admit it. If I didn't make so many mistakes from the blinds, I would probably have a monster ROI. But I don't, and I think that my play from the blinds is generally one of my biggest leaks. Whether it's SB v BB, or multiway out of the blinds, I consistently find that I make mistakes.

I'm gonna start trying to post some blind hands, and see if I can't get some help to correct this fool. Thanks in advance.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

BB (t775) <font color="white"> 8s 9c </font>
UTG (t650)
UTG+1 (t1135)
UTG+2 (t1050)
MP1 (t1010)
MP2 (t425)
MP3 (t920)
CO (t783)
Button (t507)
Hero (t745)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
8 folds,Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t60) K/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, BB checks.

Turn: (t60) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets t30, BB calls t30.

River: (t120) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets t85, Hero ....

<font color="blue"> Thoughts on all streets welcome too. </font>

[SuitedSixes]

Scuba-
A useful approach to this conundrum may be to disguise the stacks as ring game amounts and post in one of the NL sub-forums. I bet you would get some expert responses over there.

[bigt439]

I think you played it fine if you call the river.

[SuitedSixes]

I would lead out on the river also, give him a chance to fold.

You had to call his river bet, but I am guessing you lost this hand.

[bluefeet]

Good post Mr.Scuba, I hope others participate.

I agree with big, in calling the river - as he's not likely checking behind TP (or MPBK for that matter) on flop.

Having said that, does it make more sense to spend some of these chips leading into him on the flop?

Of course that brings TWO streets to navigate when he call/raises your flop lead though.

[ QUOTE ]
I think you played it fine if you call the river.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why don't you like a flop bet, something like 40-50? Won't that help tell you where you are?

[splashpot]

I know the pot is only 60, but I HATE betting 30. Ever.

[bluefeet]

[ QUOTE ]
I would lead out on the river also, give him a chance to fold.


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, in that you're still ahead often enough of his non-flushed range - not getting raised off without it. Knowing that a called turn will likely bet behind your checked river with hands you beat.


"Knowing that a called turn will likely bet behind your checked river with hands you beat."

...but if this is the case, do we let him bet behind with the lessor hand? Uhboy, having thoughs of adanthar's post /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
I know the pot is only 60, but I HATE betting 30. Ever.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you saying that you don't bet this hand? Furthermore, doesn't 30 accomplish the same thing as 60?

[golfcchs]

I fold here because I dont like playing a hand out of position that is this weak. What range do you complete here? Also what are you trying to acomplish when you complete here?


Once you limp I play very tight from the blinds. If I dont have tpgk or better then I usually dont get involved, I do play the 22's though were donks see almost all bets from the blinds in a limped pot as a steal. I know I dont play the blinds post flop anywhere near perfect, but I think it makes it a lot easier then what you are trying to do.

By the way, what buyin is this?

[golfcchs]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I know the pot is only 60, but I HATE betting 30. Ever.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you saying that you don't bet this hand? Furthermore, doesn't 30 accomplish the same thing as 60?

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont think 30 does the same as 60 since 30 is the min bet

[splashpot]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I know the pot is only 60, but I HATE betting 30. Ever.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you saying that you don't bet this hand? Furthermore, doesn't 30 accomplish the same thing as 60?

[/ QUOTE ]
Betting 60 makes a big difference, IMO. Most people see a min-bet as basically nothing. I'd probably bet 50-60 on the flop and give up if that bet doesn't work.

The way it played out, you pretty much announced that you have a super-weak hand.

[AA suited]

fold preflop

30 chips is not worth it with j2s

(look at the situation you got yourself into over 30 chips)

[fluorescenthippo]

scuba, whats your thought process on checking the flop. is this standard for you?

[bigt439]

[ QUOTE ]
I would lead out on the river also, give him a chance to fold.

You had to call his river bet, but I am guessing you lost this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Give him a chance to fold what? A worse hand?

[bigt439]

[ QUOTE ]
fold preflop

30 chips is not worth it with j2s

(look at the situation you got yourself into over 30 chips)

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that folding pf is an option if you're not comfortable postflop but there are 45 chips in the pot and it only costs you 15 to call. I don't know where this 30 number is coming from, but getting 3:1 on your cash can make this a winner for lots of players IMO.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
fold preflop

30 chips is not worth it with j2s

(look at the situation you got yourself into over 30 chips)

[/ QUOTE ]

Come on. I want to learn to play. If I didn't want to learn, then I would never put any money into any pots unless I had premium hands. And then just emphasize my appearances in the later stages.

That being said, I think there is plenty of opportunity to play from the blinds with a profit, and also some other hands from LP.

So, be ready, I'm going to be showing quite a few hands, where I really donked it up. This was not one of them.

[bluefeet]

[ QUOTE ]
Come on. I want to learn to play. If I didn't want to learn, then I would never put any money into any pots unless I had premium hands. And then just emphasize my appearances in the later stages.

That being said, I think there is plenty of opportunity to play from the blinds with a profit, and also some other hands from LP.

So, be ready, I'm going to be showing quite a few hands, where I really donked it up. This was not one of them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. This isn't a discussion about what hands to complete and which hands to not. Blind vs. blind. "How do you play POST-FLOP on THIS flop?" Post away!!

More discussion please...(hand specific, but we have one!)

- pros/cons flop lead
- pros/cons turn lead
- pros/cons river lead

[ QUOTE ]

So, be ready, I'm going to be showing quite a few hands, where I really donked it up. This was not one of them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, it was. Your call out of the SB was fine, but when you flop middle pair and are only facing the BB, you need to bet. A min-bet is basically nothing at those blind levels (like another poster said), so fire 45-60 chips into the pot. If you get a call, a turn bet or 2/3-1x pot isn't out of the question (although it might be with your stack), but when the third club comes out on the turn (assuming the BB calls), I think his chances of a K or flush are too big and I'm done.

Will

I think firing at the pot on the flop is a good play. Bet maybe 2/3 of the pot and play it from there. Chances are, he will fold, and you pick up the pot. If he calls, and the flush is out there, I would check the turn and fold to a decent size bet.

Then you have the overcards and the flush that beats you and it's not worth messing around with anymore this early in the tournament.

[adanthar]

Yeah, your call PF is fine, but when you flop something like middle pair no kicker on a drawish board, you can assume two things: 1)you have the best hand, but 2)you will have absolutely no clue where you are on any street if you don't bet here.

OK, you checked. The turn gives him 5875775 additional reasons to call, so he does. The river...is as close to a brick as possible on this board and you should be referring straight to the thread I just made.

[zipppy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I know the pot is only 60, but I HATE betting 30. Ever.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you saying that you don't bet this hand? Furthermore, doesn't 30 accomplish the same thing as 60?

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont think 30 does the same as 60 since 30 is the min bet

[/ QUOTE ]

So? That means nothing. People assume the "min bet" is such a noob bet that they never try it. I think 30 does accomplish the same thing as 60, scuba, if your opponent is tight enough. if your opponent is loose, then a min bet is pointless.

Checking the river invites the villian to take a stab at the pot. If you bet 30 again, an inferior hand will likely fold or call out of curiousity, and a better hand will likely raise.

&gt;&gt;&gt;ZIPPPY

[runner4life7]

I minraise from the sb if folded to there and then bet like 65 if he calls my minraise on that flop.

[zipppy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

So, be ready, I'm going to be showing quite a few hands, where I really donked it up. This was not one of them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, it was. Your call out of the SB was fine, but when you flop middle pair and are only facing the BB, you need to bet. A min-bet is basically nothing at those blind levels (like another poster said), so fire 45-60 chips into the pot. If you get a call, a turn bet or 2/3-1x pot isn't out of the question (although it might be with your stack), but when the third club comes out on the turn (assuming the BB calls), I think his chances of a K or flush are too big and I'm done.

Will

[/ QUOTE ]

i strongly doubt that the villian had a king. top pair is rarely checking a flop with a flush draw. Even two pair is sometimes defending after this flop. if someone does slowplay top pair or better on the flop, almost always they are raising when the 3rd club comes out on the turn.

[lacky]

hero needs to bet the flop, bet the turn, fold to a reraise from anyone but a manaic. It's less confusing when you don't invite bluffs. If your aggressive, and they still play back, you know where you stand

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
The river...is as close to a brick as possible on this board and you should be referring straight to the thread I just made.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, funny, that's how I thought when I was in the hand. Thanks.

[tigerite]

I'd bet the flop, I like the preflop complete, though with multiple tables going I might let it go, because it's probably only marginally +$EV to play this anyway.

[HoldingFolding]

[ QUOTE ]
I minraise from the sb if folded to there and then bet like 65 if he calls my minraise on that flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I haven't played a hand yet or have shown down decent hands I too will raise to 75 here. My stats show this is a +EV move. If called, I'll bet 90 into all but the most dangerous looking flops and not put anymore chips in.

I like folding here, as it gives the impression you're super tight, not completing despite 3-1 odds. This allows me to open-push from the SB when blinds are higher with greater FE. Similarly blind stealing from all positions later on happens more successfully.

preflop - complete
postflop - lead out bet of 60

BB folds

if BB calls, reassess on turn, club hits board, bet 90, fold to reraise

[pooh74]

PF complete is fine. J2o and I might just fold it. I'd bet ~40 on the flop, if called, I check/call-fold the turn. If checked behind, I lead river for some amount. Folding to raises on all streets and maybe folding to a turn bet depending on my mood if was cold called on the flop.

[Melchiades]

Don't overestimate this image effect. If SB have folded to me at the first few levels, I will still call his push with a nice hand when the blinds get big. I need more of a read than someone giving me a walk in the BB at the first few levels to think they are übertight. And then you will have the donks that didn't even notice you gave them a walk.

If your hand is worth completing with, complete. You lose more EV+ by folding hands that are worth playing than you gain in FE later (because I think this increased FE is minimal).

Basicly if I see a guy folding the first 20-30 hands and then start pushing I will assume he knows what he is doing. This will not tighten up my calling range, quite the opposite.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think you played it fine if you call the river.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why don't you like a flop bet, something like 40-50? Won't that help tell you where you are?

[/ QUOTE ]
No, because he might call you/raise you with any king/any jack/any flush draw/QT/mid pp/maybe any 4...

you still have to find out where your at in the hand. a flop bet is absolutely necessary. you can still get away from the hand if reraised.