View Full Version : From SS...I want micro views.
Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)
Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls, Button calls, Hero calls, BB calls.
Flop: (12 SB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, MP1 calls, CO calls, Button folds, Hero calls, BB calls.
Turn: (11 BB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, MP1 folds, CO calls, Hero calls, BB calls.
River: (15 BB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>,
Every street is worth commenting on.
Eeegah
12-04-2005, 10:39 PM
I need reads. Is CO a decent player? If he is I don't see him having less than AJs here.
I don't see what you're accomplishing with the river bet, but I suspect you're being purposely cryptic about it. You ain't bluffing UTG+1 off a better hand, and If you're so sure UTG+1 has AK/AQ, why not just call the river?
First off, wow, I need to find tables like that more often.
I'm not sure about the preflop call. But with three cold calling the raise, I probably complete.
I probably lead out the flop. I would probably check/raise if UTG+1 bet and it came back to me, but I just call when it comes back for 2. 3-betting won't knock anyone out, only BB would have to think about it.
Turn is fine given the flop.
River donk is fun, since it keeps AK/AQ type hands from checking and CO is going to check this river. If you get raised, well, you're probably done for, but it's an okay call.
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Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)
Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls, Button calls, Hero calls, BB calls.
Flop: (12 SB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, MP1 calls, CO calls, Button folds, Hero calls, BB calls.
Turn: (11 BB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, MP1 folds, CO calls, Hero calls, BB calls.
River: (15 BB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>,
Every street is worth commenting on.
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Any reads on UTG+1?
Preflop - no issues, a call is fine.
Flop - I might be tempted to bet into this, hoping that UTG+1 would raise with overcards to help thin the field. With the way it was played, I t hink you are behind - AA, KK, QQ, JJ, and AJ ... since there are no reads on UTG+1 it's hard to put him on a range of hands when raising from EP.
Given the flop check, I might take the lead with a 3-bet and hope UTG+1 was raising with overcards.
From that point on the hand would play itself a little easier ... if UTG+1 4-bet the flop, I might check-call to a showdown UI assuming none of the cold callers wake up. If UTG+1 called the flop-raise and raised my turn bet .... I'm not sure what I would do but I would lean towards a fold ... if everyone was around for the call, I would probably donate since the pot is so huge (and we have no reads).
Is there something special with the river donk-bet that I'm missing?
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I need reads.
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Table o' Fish.
SlantNGo
12-04-2005, 11:08 PM
Pre-flop is goot. I'm betting this flop no matter what. Ideally, if UTG+1 is aggressive, he can raise with overcards to blow away 3 behind him. If UTG+1 is passive, the bet is for value & information. If he doesn't raise, we have the best hand here the majority of the time, and we should play it as such. If he does raise, we play it as a drawing hand (folding to a river bet).
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Pre-flop is goot. I'm betting this flop no matter what. Ideally, if UTG+1 is aggressive, he can raise with overcards to blow away 3 behind him. If UTG+1 is passive, the bet is for value & information. If he doesn't raise, we have the best hand here the majority of the time, and we should play it as such. If he does raise, we play it as a drawing hand (folding to a river bet).
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Assuming that the river is all undercards & no one else wakes up ... I would be hard pressed to fold since the pot would be pretty sweet. With no reads (other than table o' fish) I see a SD & hope he shows me TT or overcards.
Shillx
12-04-2005, 11:22 PM
Was this a hand you played or was it an SS post that you found interesting?
Preflop/flop/turn all look fine. The river bet is meh and something I wouldn't do, but it isn't really a bad thing. The only thing checking does is give you a chance to get away from the hand should someone else wake up. If you plan on calling a bet, a bet can never really be too bad in this type of spot. The PFR has no idea that we just have KJ, but something like AA certainly can't raise on this river the way it has played out. He would truly need a monster to raise in this spot (assuming that we are a typical player) because it is so often 2 crap pair or a rivered gutterball.
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Was this a hand you played or was it an SS post that you found interesting?
Preflop/flop/turn all look fine. The river bet is meh and something I wouldn't do, but it isn't really a bad thing. The only thing checking does is give you a chance to get away from the hand should someone else wake up. If you plan on calling a bet, a bet can never really be too bad in this type of spot. The PFR has no idea that we just have KJ, but something like AA certainly can't raise on this river the way it has played out. He would truly need a monster to raise in this spot (assuming that we are a typical player) because it is so often 2 crap pair or a rivered gutterball.
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It was a post I found interesting...the advice was all the same and I didn't agree with it....I'll put my views up after a few more responses.
Fold the flop or three bet it. I definately fold, but given your reads maybe you 3 bet. If he peels but calls the turn we're probably in trouble. If the plan is bet/fold the river, which it should be based on the way you played it, a check fold on the river after 3 betting the flop is not outlandish and saves us a big bet. I don't think this hand is strong enough to want a showdown if UTG + 1 gets past the turn. If we 3 bet and are dealing with AK we no longer have to worry about the BB drawing to whatever outs he has. How many players can successfully bluff AK on this river after a flop that was 3 bet? Probably not many. Bottom line - I want BB off his hand if I continue past the flop. I also wouldn't hate a bet / fold on the river if you're suspicious of AK, but only after a flop that was 3 bet. If BB calls a 3 bet a check fold is easy on the turn and we save money.
Buckmulligan
12-05-2005, 12:12 AM
I am really not sure we we are not leading this flop? Is hero trying to checkraise a single bet and bloat the pot? If he's looking to check and reevaluate a call based on the action, I don't think I would be sticking around.
Aaron W.
12-05-2005, 02:13 AM
Do I need to bump the thread about betting into the preflop raiser again? I don't bet this flop.
I'm currently leaning towards donking the turn because I don't want to see villain check behind if he was in auto-bet/raise mode on the flop. Also, unless he's a LAG, he has an awfully tough time raising here without AK or better. If he raises the turn, call and check the river. I would probably fold to a bet, but I might have trapped myself into calling by making the pot too big.
Given how hero played it, he'd better be folding the river if it's raised.
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Do I need to bump the thread about betting into the preflop raiser again? I don't bet this flop.
I'm currently leaning towards donking the turn because I don't want to see villain check behind if he was in auto-bet/raise mode on the flop. Also, unless he's a LAG, he has an awfully tough time raising here without AK or better. If he raises the turn, call and check the river. I would probably fold to a bet, but I might have trapped myself into calling by making the pot too big.
Given how hero played it, he'd better be folding the river if it's raised.
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I'm only in here sporadically so I must have missed this thread ... i'd love to read it again though since betting this flop is something I currently do 10 times out of 10.
EDIT:
correction - I do 10 times out of 10 in this case where I think I might be able to get some protection from the PF raiser in a large field.
Aaron W.
12-05-2005, 02:44 AM
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Do I need to bump the thread about betting into the preflop raiser again? I don't bet this flop.
I'm currently leaning towards donking the turn because I don't want to see villain check behind if he was in auto-bet/raise mode on the flop. Also, unless he's a LAG, he has an awfully tough time raising here without AK or better. If he raises the turn, call and check the river. I would probably fold to a bet, but I might have trapped myself into calling by making the pot too big.
Given how hero played it, he'd better be folding the river if it's raised.
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I'm only in here sporadically so I must have missed this thread ... i'd love to read it again though since betting this flop is something I currently do 10 times out of 10.
EDIT:
correction - I do 10 times out of 10 in this case where I think I might be able to get some protection from the PF raiser in a large field.
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Link (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=3568455&an=&page=0&vc=1)
Point to ponder: When he raises to protect your hand, is your hand worth protecting (ie, is it better than his)?
A majority in the SS thread advocated a flop bet....which I thought was wrong.
The only reason to bet into the PFR is if he will raise a worse hand. In this case; overcards.
But if he's raising overcards, the only hands you're hoping to fold are the ones with cards that he holds in his hand anyway.
We can't protect on the flop. So, if we are continuing, we must suspect that there is still a reasonable chance we are ahead. In which case, I'm going for value.
I like a check/3bet on the flop. Bet/fold turn if called. Check/fold turn UI if capped.
ajm36
12-05-2005, 07:55 AM
I 3-bet this flop. If villian calls the 3-bet, I lead the turn, if villian caps, I call and ceck/fold the turn UI. Any K, J or spade hits the turn though, it's on. Of course, I don't play 2/4 so this is probably wrong.
@bsolute_luck
12-05-2005, 08:54 AM
a check/3-bet would be interesting if you could bluff like you have a set and fold a bigger hand. i've never used that line on this hand, but something to think about i guess.
i also don't like a flop lead, but at the same time, the reason you don't is like you said: would he raise with UI overcards. he continues to bet the turn, so i don't think he has UI OCs but we have odds to call. based on this info, i don't understand the river bet. no premium pair is folding to that river card or AJ. /images/graemlins/confused.gif
what are you trying to accomplish/represent with this river bet? he has TT or that he'll fold UI OCs but other fish will call with a worse J or other pair?
I was a bit unclear about what to do after checking the flop. All I knew is I wasn't betting it. (which is what 95% of SS was advocating).
I think check/3bet. Bet fold. gets the most when ahead and lets us get away relatively cheaply when behind.
Just to be clear...I didn't play this hand.
I would just check/call the river.
Preflop: Agree w/ the call.
Flop: Assuming you are facing a higher pocket pair, then you have 5 outs to improve to 2 pair or trips, and since you are getting 9.5:1 odds here, makes sense to call. (Of course, you could be facing AJ as well, but [censored] happens.)
Turn: I agree w/ the check/call. 13:1 pot odds still gives you a nice shot to improve and you do still have that overcard in case you are up against AJ.
River: I'm not sure I understand the bet here. If you think you are ahead on the turn, why not check/raise at that point? And squeeze an extra bet out of him there? If you feel you are ahead on the turn, then just calling & waiting until the river is too passive. Given the aggression he has shown so far, I think I just check/call the river.
Aaron W.
12-05-2005, 10:54 AM
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I like a check/3bet on the flop. Bet/fold turn if called. Check/fold turn UI if capped.
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If capped, I think you're getting odds to chase a 3-outer on the river, plus your trips out may still be good against an overpair (if he doesn't have AJ).
You may be right.
It's like 4am and far too late/early for me to do the maths.
But when behind, we have to factor that AJ and KK detract from those 3outs as well.
imported_The Vibesman
12-05-2005, 11:29 AM
Against a straightforward UTG+1 I play it the same way. If UTG+1 is very aggressive I find a checkraise on the flop or maybe the turn, for value.
grunch....
i check/call the river
all other streets are fine
edit: would appreciate a link to the original ss post... or even just pm it to me if you dont wanna spoil discussion
SlantNGo
12-05-2005, 02:39 PM
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Do I need to bump the thread about betting into the preflop raiser again? I don't bet this flop.
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I don't get it. Assuming the PFR bets AK or AQ here but only calls if I bet, what are you trying to accomplish by checking? Check/call then donk the turn? I'd rather lead both streets. Check/raise to bloat the pot?
Unlike many of the situations from the betting into PFR post, I think our hand here is quite strong against a typical raiser's range. This is not a situation where villain only raises a better hand. A PFR alone doesn't tell us too much, so we can't narrow it down like we could if there was a 3-bet.
If we are behind, we have 5 outs to catch up, and can easily make a profitable call back to us. We can call also on the turn, then check/fold on the river.
So I would play it as follows: Bet the flop. Keep betting until resistance is shown. If the PFR raises my flop bet, call, then check/call the turn. Check/fold the river unimproved. I'm counting on an unimproved overcard hand like AK or AQ not betting the river unless it makes a pair. Is this a bad assumption?
I fail to see why checking the flop is superior in this case.
Aaron W.
12-05-2005, 05:14 PM
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Do I need to bump the thread about betting into the preflop raiser again? I don't bet this flop.
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I don't get it. Assuming the PFR bets AK or AQ here but only calls if I bet, what are you trying to accomplish by checking? Check/call then donk the turn? I'd rather lead both streets. Check/raise to bloat the pot?
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Let's say you bet and villain raises. Do you donk-fold the turn? Or check-fold? Or check-call? Checking allows him to gain a free card with his flop raise if he did it with overcards. Donking the turn faces you with the unhappy prospect of getting raised again, and probably having the worst hand, but feeling the need to call down because you have a decent hand. Check-folding is bad because you may have enough outs and the right pot odds to peel.
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So I would play it as follows: Bet the flop. Keep betting until resistance is shown. If the PFR raises my flop bet, call, then check/call the turn. Check/fold the river unimproved. I'm counting on an unimproved overcard hand like AK or AQ not betting the river unless it makes a pair. Is this a bad assumption?
I fail to see why checking the flop is superior in this case.
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Checking the flop is better because it gives you a better turn/river line.
SlantNGo
12-06-2005, 12:00 AM
Can you post the SS thread? I'm interested in reading the discussion in there.
SCfuji
12-06-2005, 12:40 AM
do we get any reads?
should i be worried if i think the river card needs to be more threatening than an off 4 for us to sneak in a 'value' bet?
Link to the SS post.
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...e=5#Post4092367 (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=4092367&an=0&page=5#Post 4092367)
*grunch*
I agree with the preflop cold-call.
I would lead this flop. I like the lead for two reasons: 1) it's possible this is a value bet--the range of hands to which you are behind is fairly narrow; 2) it defines your hand and gives you better information. If UTG+1 raises still (which seems fairly reasonable to assume), I'd call. It is just not that likely that a 3-bet will really protect your hand--even if UTG+1 will raise with AK UI. That is, with the BB and MP1 (who cold-called) still in the hand, the 3-bet is unlikely to protect your hand, and if any of these players does hold AA-JJ, or AJ (or the somewhat unlikely but still possible J6), you are just giving money away.
Having done that, I'd check-call the turn and river. I have no idea what this river bet is supposed to represent, as it certainly is not an effective bluff.
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