Pocket Pair Vs. pair on board? Are you safe?

[mojolang]

This hand came up last night. A couple minutes after sitting down I find Q /forums/images/icons/spade.gif Q /forums/images/icons/club.gif in LP and raise a limper. All fold except the limper and blinds. The BB is all in.

Flop: 4 /forums/images/icons/club.gif 8 /forums/images/icons/club.gif 8 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif

SB checks, limper bets, I raise SB calls, limper three bets. I think to myself, this isn't good but I need to find out if he has it and I make it 4. He caps and I fold. SB calls.

Turn: 9 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif

Sb checks limper bets

river: 2 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif

SB folds Limper shows 4 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif 5 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif

Later on I found out this guy was a total maniac, a little later than I would have liked. Why in god's name do people bluff into dry side pots?

SB had AA

I guess my main Q is how you find out if someone has trips w/pair on board if you have a pocket without catching "call'em down syndrome"

Hand #2 (against same limper)

T /forums/images/icons/heart.gif T /forums/images/icons/spade.gif in LP. Player from hand #1 opens in EP with a raise. folded to me who makes it 3. Limper makes it four. I call.

Flop: 2 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif 8 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif K /forums/images/icons/heart.gif

He bets, I raise, he reraises, I pop it again putting him to the test and he makes it 5 and I muck. I think he has to have AK to be doing this (remember wasn't sure of his maniacal tendencies just yet and the preflop action scared me a bit)

I muck and he shows AJo. Had I known of his maniacal tendencies I would have just called him down.

Comments?

Joe

[JTG51]

Once you 3-bet the flop, folding to the 4-bet is very bad. You are getting 19-1 to call the last bet and you figure to make multiple big bets if you spike your Q on the turn.

[mojolang]

Yeah, I agree looking back that would have been right, but then what? You don't bluff into a dry side! But how do you go about finding out if your PP is good with a pair on board in most situations. I usually make it 3 bets on the flop and get out if the raiser continues.

Joe

[Allan]

Hand 1: I think I would have called the 3 bet and raised the turn. At least in the games I've been playing in, players with an 8 are more likely to slow down and get some big bets out of a person who looks like they still like their hand on this kind of flop. Also it is kind of a weird position to be in with the sb calling all bets. A flush draw perhaps or maybe he's just sitting back and letting the 2 aggressors do all the betting for him. If you wait for the turn you might get 2 bb out of the sb possible flush draw and as a byproduct you get info that is more meaningful than the cheap street raises.

Who exactly was bluffing into a dry side pot? there are a ton of bets in the side pot and he's got a hand. He's just overplaying it.

Hand 2: Since you weren't completly aware of your opponents tendencies quite yet, I think you could muck this hand preflop. Against unknown opponents, I tend to err on the side of caution against UTG raises untill I know more. Maybe I'm too tight here but I muck.

On the flop what exactly are you testing after he 3 bets your raise? Unless he's a maniac, (which you don't know yet) any hand worth 3 betting here is enough for me to not like my TT too much, in fact getting 4 bet PF by an EP player is something that makes me not like my hand all that much.

So now that you know this guy is a maniac, like Louie says: you let him get the last bet in and you DON'T fold if you have a hand of some value.


Allan

[mojolang]

On hand # 1 the SB was all in. This there was a side preflop. There was maybe 2 bucks in the side on the flop. The SB was not a factor. He played anything and played it passively. You knew exactly where he was at so he was not a factor. Raising the turn seems like a bit of a volatile strategy (that's four more small bets if you're beat, plus what if the flush does peel off?).
AS for hand 2, I KNEW something was up, I just wasn't 100% sure. If the action hadn't been so heated preflop that hand would have gone to the river, it was just too possible that he had JJ, QQ, AA, AK or KQ and I didn't wanna call him down.
I truly found out how maniacal he was one hand later when he 5 bet the river with four clubs on board when he had the T of clubs. YEESH.

Joe

[Allan]

Joe,

here is an example of a dry side pot.


UTG raises the sb calls and the BB calls with 76s.

Flop is 89Kr checked to UTG who bets all in both bb and sb call.

main pot 4.5 bb

turn is an Ace checked through.

main pot 4.5 bb
side pot 0

river Q

Checked to bb who bluffs into the main pot of 4.5 bets and The side pot of 0.

UTG takes it all down with anything better than 7 high.



Notice in your example that the side pot is nowhere close to being dry with all those bets in there.


Allan

[Allan]

Joe,

Yeah raising the turn is volitile. It probably isn't the greatest general advice. I've been in not believeing my opponents mode lately and while I'm right about my read sometimes, when I'm wrong I'm sooooo wrong and it costs a lot. I guess what it comes down to for me is:

What is the pair on board.
From what position is the person being aggressive.
How does this position relate to the on board pair.
Is there anything on the board that could make my opponent capapble of playing his hand strongly (that isn't trips)
Is my opponent capable of that much aggression (is he thinking about what I'm capable of)

I'm probably forgetting some stuff ........

Allan

[pudley4]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
I muck and he shows AJo. Had I known of his maniacal tendencies I would have just called him down

[/ QUOTE ]

Didn't Hand 1 tip you off?