raising bottom pair into five people

[Slim Pickens]

2/4 live game

Hero has 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif8/images/graemlins/spade.gif in MP. UTG drunk LAG limps, Hero limps, 2 LP weak-fish people limp, SB (2+2'er) completes, and BB checks.

flop (6 players) K/images/graemlins/spade.gifQ/images/graemlins/club.gif8/images/graemlins/heart.gif
UTG drunk LAG bets, Hero ???

How bad is raising here? UTG has been known to lead with anything from a gutshot to a set, and the fish behind generally call with any piece of the board or draw.

[tiltaholic]

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2/4 live game

Hero has 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif8/images/graemlins/spade.gif in MP. UTG drunk LAG limps, Hero limps, 2 LP weak-fish people limp, SB (2+2'er) completes, and BB checks.

flop (6 players) K/images/graemlins/spade.gifQ/images/graemlins/club.gif8/images/graemlins/heart.gif
UTG drunk LAG bets, Hero ???

How bad is raising here? UTG has been known to lead with anything from a gutshot to a set, and the fish behind generally call with any piece of the board or draw.

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well, if they're calling with any piece of the board, then they're probably crushing you.

i prefer calling and turning an 8

[Fantam]

LOL. Raising is awful.

You live in Las Vegas and you know how to play, I assume.

Even if you are playing against poor players, your bottom pair wont stand up against 5 other players. Particularly with 2 high cards on the board.

You are behind in this hand. Fold. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

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well, if they're calling with any piece of the board, then they're probably crushing you.

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This and the faqt that there are so many people in the pot makes raising here bad /images/graemlins/tongue.gif I fold this one.

[Eeegah]

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well, if they're calling with any piece of the board, then they're probably crushing you.

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This and the faqt that there are so many people in the pot makes raising here bad /images/graemlins/tongue.gif I fold this one.

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5 outs to 2 pair or a set, 1.5 for the backdoor flush, 0.5 for our 2-gapper straight draw. That's 7 outs needing about 5.7SB to call and we're being offered 7. Even with some discount and not closing the action I think this is an easy peel.

[DCWildcat]

Calling > Raising > Folding. Folding is particularly bad with all of your outs. I call.

Edit: Ignore the last sentence.

[milesdyson]

or let's be realistic and discount our very weak two pair draw and our practically nonexistant backdoor straight draw because it will put TJQK on the board.

fold it up.

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or let's be realistic and discount our very weak two pair draw and our practically nonexistant backdoor straight draw because it will put TJQK on the board.

fold it up.

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folding>>calling>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >raising

[Eeegah]

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or let's be realistic and discount our very weak two pair draw and our practically nonexistant backdoor straight draw because it will put TJQK on the board.

fold it up.

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I still think it's worth a call. I expect one or both fish to call and pad for us and the SB to fold. I'm done if SB checkraises and UTG makes it 3 though.

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well, if they're calling with any piece of the board, then they're probably crushing you.

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This and the faqt that there are so many people in the pot makes raising here bad /images/graemlins/tongue.gif I fold this one.

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5 outs to 2 pair or a set, 1.5 for the backdoor flush, 0.5 for our 2-gapper straight draw. That's 7 outs needing about 5.7SB to call and we're being offered 7. Even with some discount and not closing the action I think this is an easy peel.

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Don't forget that this is a live game though. That's 7:1 prerake. Right now you're probably getting 5 or 6 to 1 realistically. The pot is small and you have bottom pair with 4 players to act behind you. I think it's an easy fold.

[Shillx]

I'd rather hold my breath and call than raise here. Calling would be suicide in an aggressive game, but you can exploit passive players by making calls like this with weak hands. IMO the best play is just to throw it away and pick a better spot. This board is too friendly and I can just see you getting coldcalled by the entire table.

Brad

[Greg J]

It's not all about the outs. Relative position makes this a fold IMO. If you knew everyone was just going to call, then a call is great. But the chance of it being raised is high, even with passive opponents.

[Eeegah]

All right, guess I'll concede the point.

[Slim Pickens]

OK. Let's change the situation slightly...

2/4 live game

Hero has 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif8/images/graemlins/spade.gif in MP. UTG drunk LAG limps, Hero limps, 2 LP weak-fish people limp, SB (LAG 2+2'er) raises, BB calls and so does everyone else.

flop (6 players) K/images/graemlins/spade.gifQ/images/graemlins/club.gif8/images/graemlins/heart.gif
SB bets, BB folds, UTG drunk LAG calls, Hero ???

[milesdyson]

surely you're calling now getting 14:1.

[Slim Pickens]

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You live in Las Vegas and you know how to play, I assume.

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I think it's pretty obvious that I don't. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

The raise is not because I think I have the best hand. It's because I think raising makes the fish calling with a lot of draws a mistake that calling doesn't.