10/20 on the wrong end of the screwplay - J7o

[Surfbullet]

Villain is loose, not enough hands and new to the table.

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 4 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (2 SB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (2 BB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, Hero folds.

Surf

[bank]

I think you can call this down. Enough straight and flush draws will semibluff this turn I believe. It's real close though...wouldn't have a problem either way.

[TStoneMBD]

id call this down but i could be persuaded otherwise.

[Lmn55d]

yea I HATE these hands. I would usually call down too and I think its slightly +EV.

[NLSoldier]

seems like it should be a fold in theory because everyone should know that no one ever folds to screwplays, ever. and therefore they should always be for value, but lots of idiots still try to use them as bluffs (see tstones post in a diff screwplay thread /images/graemlins/tongue.gif ). so i call it down.

[GoblinMason (Craig)]

Yeah, I call this down too as there are plenty of semibluffing opportunities on this board.

My other reaction was to 3bet and take a free showdown to charge his draw.

-Craig

[DeathDonkey]

[ QUOTE ]
My other reaction was to 3bet and take a free showdown to charge his draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

I sorta like this. Also I raise preflop.

-DeathDonkey

[wheelz]

i'm in the calldown camp.

and screw charging a draw here. if he's semibluffing he usually fires on the river and charges himself. if you're beat you save bets, he can't cap or donk the river and maybe fold your better hand, or donk when he calls your 3-bet and rivers his draw and you decide to pay off... i just don't think charging him is worth it.

i'm beginning to think not "charging draws" often is one of the things i do that keeps my AF lower than other TAGs that seems to be working for me. of course i don't actually know this. i just get the feeling a lot of people do this a lot more than might be necessary. but again this is just speculation on my part...

end rant

[GoblinMason (Craig)]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My other reaction was to 3bet and take a free showdown to charge his draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

I sorta like this. Also I raise preflop.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

Good to know...when I make plays like this that don't work, it makes me feel like I'm one of the monkeys...

[GoblinMason (Craig)]

[ QUOTE ]
and screw charging a draw here. if he's semibluffing he usually fires on the river and charges himself. if you're beat you save bets, he can't cap or donk the river and maybe fold your better hand, or donk when he calls your 3-bet and rivers his draw and you decide to pay off... i just don't think charging him is worth it.

[/ QUOTE ]

This seems like good advice. Now that I think about it, I don't really like 3betting the turn after all.

[Subfallen]

what would flawless_victory do??

3-BET THAT DUMB SLUT

or fold, whatever

[TStoneMBD]

yah i really disagree with 3 betting the turn because people who make screwplay semibluffs on the turn here are almost certainly betting the river.

there are also going to be times when you 3bet the turn and he caps it forcing you to fold a clean 5 outter or he caps his screwplay bluff. i rarely trust a person who makes a screwplay unless i have a reason to because people who make screwplays have a much higher likelihood of being a total donkey then the average player.

[Wynton]

If all those answers don't convince you that calling down was best, Surf, consider this: I also would have folded.

[danzasmack]

I don't like a fold here. I think villain makes this play with hands like 58, 68, 78 or other OESD w/pair. Could be a semibluff on a flush draw. I just think, like some other posters have said, that calling down here is +EV.

[cartman]

I will stand corrected, because the call down camp is a pretty solid bunch, but when I read the original post it looked like a clear fold to me. Weird lines historically baffle me, but this one looks like two pair or better--sometimes from the flop, but I think more often he bet the flop with a draw or a small pair and made a straight, two pair, or set on the turn.

Cartman

[DeathDonkey]

[ QUOTE ]
people who make screwplays have a much higher likelihood of being a total donkey then the average player.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, where's NLSoldier to confirm this. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

-DeathDonkey

Is this the same guy?&gt; damn hes aggressive...
Im prob calling turn, river and making a great note, just because hes CR way to often...is the CR bluff possible since he knows your folding to his prior cr?

[gaming_mouse]

If this guy would complete with almost anything, then there are a lot more hands that make either a flush or OESD than there are hands that beat you.

So if he'd semibluff here, and I think he would, I like calling down.

3-betting the turn is interesting, but at 10/20 i've seen cap bluffs/semibluffs somewhat often so far, and calling down after a cap is bad. so i think just calldown.

[spydog]

I would 3-bet this turn and fold to a cap with the intention of taking a free showdown. I'm not 3-betting many turns and I usually have the goods when I do, so I'm not worried about him cap-(semi)bluffing me in the future because it will be highly -EV for him when he does. In fact, I want to show this down after 3-betting the turn because he might cap me more light on the turn in the future.

If he's on air with his screwplay then 3-betting can give him a chance to fold a hand he shouldn't. Plus, 3-betting also allows us to get an extra bet when we improve if we are up against Qx/6x/PP type hand.