T9s play along

[hobbsmann]

10/20 pp. Just sat at the table a couple of orbits ago so no real reads except the button seems kind of donkish (35/5 ish after 25 or so hands).

We'll skip the preflop decision because we can't have a play along if I fold preflop.

Party Poker 10.00/20.00 Hold'em <font color="#0000FF">(10 handed)</font> link (http://www.darksun.lunarpages.com/poker/)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button calls, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (14.00 SB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(7 players)</font>
Hero.

give me a line?

[goofball]

(i think folding preflop is bad)

I think the best start is to bet and hope UTG+1 raises.

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
(i think folding preflop is bad)

I think the best start is to bet and hope UTG+1 raises.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree with above. Pre-flop isn't close, IMO.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
(i think folding preflop is bad)

I think the best start is to bet and hope UTG+1 raises.

[/ QUOTE ]

Betting to try and coax a raise from someone directly to your left is overrated, because it doesn't work often. Plus you're not getting anyone to fold a hand that counterfeits any of your outs. The best you can hope for is to knock out some silly redraw hands that could eff you, but most of the legitimate redraw hands will call two cold anyways. But you're not getting a 7, T, or JQ to fold, so I'm not sure how you're cleaning up any outs, as if it gets raised you definitely need to hit.

Basically trying to get him to raise is so you can spike the ten of spades and then still miraculously win when another spade comes on the river because the two bets on the flop knocked out the J of spades. Meh. <font color="white">&lt;3 lmd</font>

[gh9801]

I don't agree with betting out here. I'd rather check and see the action. More often than not I'll c/r here though

[me454555]

bet and hope UTG raises

[me454555]

The pot is big and getting anyone w/overcards to fold is a good thing. I'd be happy enough just to get a J out of there just in case of a redraw. On top of that, getting everyone else to call 2 cold isn't that bad either b/c we still have enough equity to 3 bet.

[ep510]

You're in bad position, your hand might not be best, and your hand, if best at this point, is very vulnerable. I like checking to see what the action is. If it goes villian bets, x number calls, I'll call and probably donk safe turn hoping for a raise (assuming that bb and/or utg fold, which will decrease odds for rest of players). A raise on the turn by villian will do you better than a raise on the flop.

[Piiop]

I agree with this post. Betting hoping for a raise doesn't work that often, especially with this board and with no read. Not only that, but there are two players inbetween you and the PFR. I'd check and see what develops and whatever happens will affect my plan for the rest of the hand.

[W. Deranged]

Check.

You will have a great relative positional/informational advantage if you see what happens on the flop. Betting often will not coax a raise, and, even if it does, that won't necessarily protect your hand in a ginormous pot.

I'm approaching this hand from the point of view of having a fair amount of equity but probably needing to improve the majority of the time to win the hand.

With that in mind, betting and hoping to get raised isn't even that desirable, as it only really helps us if it gets us short-handed with non-made hands. We'll be up against better 9s, overpairs, and two pair pretty often here, needing to improve to win. We're never cleaning up our T outs (by folding 7s), never folding out flush draws or better 9s, and only rarely folding out other Ts that may dirty our gutshots. So the promotional value of a "bet-and-hope-to-get-raised" play isn't even that high, in my opinion. We may actually want customers around to pad the pot for our draw.

[damaniac]

Concur. For clarity, you mean they won't raise often with a worse hand (such as overcards), not that they won't raise an overpair right? Because if they're only knocking out others when we're drawing anyway it doesn't do us a great deal of good.

[W. Deranged]

[ QUOTE ]
Concur. For clarity, you mean they won't raise often with a worse hand (such as overcards), not that they won't raise an overpair right? Because if they're only knocking out others when we're drawing anyway it doesn't do us a great deal of good.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is exactly the point.

[hobbsmann]

I didn't think there was much value in getting the pfr to raise my donk bet as no hands that I want to fold are going to fold for 2 bets anyway. So I decided to take the check and see what develops route with the intention of c/r'ing if the pot was short handed back to me, check/calling if there were a lot of people and looking to do something on a safe turn, and folding to a lot of action.

Continued...
Flop: (14.00 SB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(7 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, MP3 folds, CO calls, Button calls, Hero.

We cool with a cold call here? 3-bet? Fold? What's the plan for various turns?

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
Concur. For clarity, you mean they won't raise often with a worse hand (such as overcards), not that they won't raise an overpair right? Because if they're only knocking out others when we're drawing anyway it doesn't do us a great deal of good.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is precisely the point.

[TStoneMBD]

checkraise the flop. your hand has tremendous value in this pot.

id 3bet the flop after it comes back to you 2 more.

preflop is easy.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
checkraise the flop. your hand has tremendous value in this pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please support this.

[gh9801]

I call the flop, check any turn

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
I call the flop, check any turn

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm playing the flop identically and betting the turn about 1/3 of the time.

[gh9801]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I call the flop, check any turn

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm playing the flop identically and betting the turn about 1/3 of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which turns do you bet?

I call the flop and check the turn. Our hand is starting to look bad, it could well be that we are drawing to only 5 outs.

[hobbsmann]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I call the flop, check any turn

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm playing the flop identically and betting the turn about 1/3 of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]
do you bet a 9 or 7? How about complete blanks?

[hobbsmann]

so I think most of us agree that check/calling the flop is best. My feeling on the flop was that the pfr is going to continuation bet most of his holdings and the guy next in could be raising with as little as a straight or flush draw. The multiple cold calls are a little concerning as they appear to draws which makes it more likely the flop raiser has a legitimate hand. Either way my top pair +gutshot has too much equity in this pot to fold and I didn't like the idea of 3-betting.

My intention was again to check pretty much all turns with the exception of an offsuit 7 and figure out a plan when the action got to me based on the action plus the turn card. Given the pot size, my marginal holding, and the connectedness of the board made this hand very tough to play and thus feel pretty much all of these decisions could go ever way.

The rest of flop and turn action....

Flop: (14.00 SB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(7 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, MP3 folds, CO calls, Button calls, Hero calls, BB folds, UTG calls.

Turn: (12.00 BB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Button caps</font>, Hero calls, CO calls.

I puked a little when button capped, but I have outs and am ahead a slim portion of the time so on to the river...

Thoughts on the flop or turn play?

[private joker]

I play preflop and flop just like you did. But we diverge on the turn. I think I just bet this, hoping to 3-bet. Considerations are:

a) likely raiser is UTG+1, meaning the draws CO and button have would need to be strong in order for them to call 2 cold

b) trap UTG, the flop bettor who thought he could clear the field by getting UTG+1 to raise his flop donk

c) it's a scary board for trips, so if you bet and it gets raised and 3-bet behind you, all hands are better defined.

d) if you 3-bet and it gets capped heads-up, again all hands are better defined.

It looks like CO is on the nut flush draw, and I'd say button has a made straight -- against which you have plenty of outs. But if he flopped a set and filled up, or has a better 9, you're in trouble.

As you played it, I think calling the cap is necessary, and I'd check and not overcall a spade river; check-call a total brick (if CO checks and button bets); bet/call improved.

[jason_t]

Bet the turn.

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
Bet the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. There are many cards I check the turn but not this one.