Large tourney situation/question (Sorry so long)

[Stagemusic]

OK, so I have been having some fun in the evenings playing in some of the large "no foldem" NL tournies on a few sites. Last night I was playing in another "All-in Classic". We started with 487 people trying to win their way to the final table where the last 10 would be awarded a seat in a Level 2 tourney that actually costs $7.00 to enter directly /forums/images/icons/tongue.gif . I have been concentrating on playing very very tight early in these tournies and have had some success doing so, usually finishing in the top 10-15% but have only made 1 final table in the past couple of weeks because I find myself short stacked towards the end basically because I refuse to engage the all in idiots early.

Last night, as I said, we started with 487 and we got down to 2 tables with 19 players left standing. I am fairly short stacked with T168000 or so. Table leader has a little less than T500000 and tourney leader has just under T800000 on the other table. There are about 4 or 5 stacks shorter than mine spread over the 2 tables. Blinds are 6000/12000 with a 2000 ante (I think). So that is really not too big of a problem. I am on the cutoff and look down to find A /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif Q /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif Blinds post, 2 calls, folded to me and I raise. Button re-raises to make it another 24K. One other caller and then to me. If I call, I will have almost 1/3 of my stack invested pre flop. If I fold (which I really didn't want to do) I waive bye bye to a good sized portion of my stack. /forums/images/icons/confused.gif Knowing that I have a super tight table image, I make a guess that I might be able to get the button off with an all in bet. So I raise all in. The button took forever and had just a couple of seconds left on his timer but still called. The other person calls also all in with a shorter stack. I look at the button and he is showing AK /forums/images/icons/club.gif the other guy is showing KQ /forums/images/icons/spade.gif. I just sat there hoping for a miracle. Nope. Flop comes 9, K, 3 rainbow, turn is a rag and I am drawing dead. IGHN.

My question really is, how can I balance not being sucked out by "all in" idiots early in a tourney but yet build a good enough stack to be competitive later in the tourney? Super tight gets me to a point but leaves me short. Advice, comments.

[eMarkM]

Actually in these low or no buyin events that attract that many people, you have to take some chances early. And from a time-is-money prespective, you want to take risks.

I've played in some $2-3 tourneys on Stars and early on I have two moves: fold or all-in. Kinda like Sklansky's System to some degree. I literally have the "sit out" button clicked and half pay attention, only unclicking it when I see a pair or two big cards. Then I basically go all-in.

Ok, simplifiying and exaggreating a little, but I want to double through or bust very early for my whole $2 investment. Last thing I want is to struggle with a tiny stack only to come short of the money. That's no fun. So that would make me one of the "all in idiots" /forums/images/icons/blush.gif It's just not worth it in these small buyin events if I can't build a nice stack early. So bust out or double up, asap.

[Bat Cape]

I've been finding myself in the same situation...playing tight and finding myslef short stacked. I agree with the previous poster to some extent in that you have to some chances early on, but I don't support the "all in" method," even though it would probably save me a lot of time and aggravation. I think you need to take chances, but I think limping with very mediocre hands is the way to go very early on the in tourny, before the blinds reach a realatively high leve (say 25/50_). But, at the same time, I think you have to be very willing to give up many of these hands, even if you think you have the best of it, or may if you call (e.g. dropping a flush draw for a big flop bet). For instance, I think its work calling A2s in the first of 2nd round of the tourny to see if you can catch a monster, but you gotta be ready to toss it for any preflop raise, and you of course should be willing to toss it on the flop, even if you hit an Ace (obviously depending the on flop and betting situation). I've been finding that this sort of play at the very beginning of the tournies can be very effective if helping to build my stack. Again...I only proceed with extreme caution when playing some of these weaker hands.

[philnewall]

Are you playing the WPO at Bugsy? If so then it really is easy to get through, I am in round 3, and I've gone through to round 2 4 times. You shouldn't play super tight at the start. This is because there will be a lot of huge pots in relation to the ante particuarly at the beginning. So during the early levels play all premium hands, all connectors, and all pairs, hoping that you can accumulate some chips.

When the blinds get really huge and you are close to the final table just try to take the antes down without a fight, dont get into a big pot unless you have a very big hand.

[Ignatius]

We started with 487 people trying to win their way to the final table where the last 10 would be awarded a seat in a Level 2 tourney that actually costs $7.00 to enter directly ...I refuse to engage the all in idiots early.
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In freerolls like that, forcing a decision early is often optimal wrt. to your hourly rate and, provided that there are other freerolls available for you to join in case you drop out, also optimal for your EV. If you play for other objectives (like practicing sound tournament strategy to optimizing your EV in the tourney you're currently playing), fine, but you shouldn't automatically dismiss the all-in guys as idiots (provided that they switch back to normal once they have aquired a fair stack).
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As for the AQ hand: Assuming you were on the larger table, there were T62000 in the pot when it came to you and a pot sized raise would have been to T86000 (T84000 on the smaller table) which about half your stack. It's pretty sure that none of the callers had AK, AA-QQ and there are only 3 ppl. to act so the risk to run into a dominating hand is about 3*(12+3+6+3)/1200 = 6%. I'd move in here w/o a second thought. Calling would be weak but is also a viable option as your hand plays nicely multiway and this is a super-satellite, so there's a high premium on survial.
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A minimum raise is certainly your worst option as it has no chance to take it down or at least limit the field to create additional dead-money, it won't get small pairs to fold and you would have to muck (at least you should have) if it gets reraised (the old turning AQ into 72 argument).
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how can I balance not being sucked out by "all in" idiots early in a tourney
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You can't and you shouldn't want to, neither. There's nothing wrong with occasionally being sucked out provided that you got your money in as a favorite. This is how you make money at poker.

[Stagemusic]

Bugsy's is a fine example of what I am talking about. The problem I have there is the "balancing" and taking a full round of betting (10 minutes) to play 5 hands. Easy to get really bored and lose interest.