This One Is For Dynasty

[tj00]

Party $2/$4 8 Handed

In MP with red Aces

2 Callers, I Raise, 2 Cold Callers, SB 3 Bets, BB Calls, 2 Calls, I Cap, 2 Calls, All Call

7 to flop capped

Flop [4 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif , J /forums/images/icons/heart.gif , T /forums/images/icons/spade.gif ]

SB Bets, 2 Calls, I Raise, 1 Cold Call, SB 3 Bets, Fold, Call, I Cap, All call SB is all in now.

4 To the turn capped

Turn 2 /forums/images/icons/club.gif

Check, I Bet, Call, Call

River 4 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif

Check, I Bet, 2 Folds

SB A9 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif

I take down $97 Pot

I guess AA can win big pots multi-way unimproved.

[Clarkmeister]

Wait.....you mean you won without flopping a set?

[Robk]

I think it might have been better to wait until the turn to raise, since the flop raise isn't going to knock anyone out in a pot this size. SB will bet the turn almost 100% since he is almost all-in, and you can use a raise to put pressure on the players behind you.

[Dynasty]

There are three players ahead of tj (including sb) who have already put a bet into the pot on the flop and only two players left behind him. It's a value raising situation. With over 15 big bets in the pot, it is very unlikely anybody will fold any pair before the river.

[tj00]

This was my thinking at the time. I was not trying to get people out so much as just pumping the pot while I felt like I was ahead.

[Robk]

>there are only two players left behind him

Even with only two players behind him, they could easily combine for 4 to 9 outs against his hands with things like underpairs to the board, gutshots, bottom pair, etc. that will fold to the double bet.

The difference in raising the turn for value and the flop for value isn't that large. Even if the SB 3 bets, you will still only be charging your opponents a total of 3BB to see the river (2 on flop + 1 on turn). If he doesn't 3bet, they will be paying 2 BB total (1 one each street). If you raise the turn they will be charged 2.5 BB.
So in other words if you think the SB will 3 bet 50% of the time there is no difference at all. I'll assume the SB will 3bet 75% of the time. If this is true you are costing yourself (edit: 1.25, assuming 5 opponents) BB by not raising. Since you will only be winning the pot about 30% of the time, you are missing out on .4 BB of ev. The pot is going to be about (edit: 25 BB, using the actual pot size). You need to win the pot an additional 1.6% of the time to make up that ev.

In addition those times the SB does reraise (thus getting you the most value) you are less likely to wind up winning the pot. And if a scare card comes you save money, blah blah blah

Sorry about all the edits.

[Dynasty]

Even with only two players behind him, they could easily combine for 4 to 9 outs against his hands with things like underpairs to the board, gutshots, bottom pair, etc. that will fold to the double bet

Playing the hand the way you reccomend, there will be at least 20 big bets in the pot when they have to call 2 bets on the turn. Why do you think a typical 2-4 player is going to fold any of those hands in such a monster pot? They'll probably be correct to call with any 4-out hand.

[Robk]

>Playing the hand the way you reccomend, there will be at >least 20 big bets in the pot when they have to call 2 bets >on the turn. Why do you think a typical 2-4 player is >going to fold any of those hands in such a monster pot? >They'll probably be correct to call with any 4-out hand

Many weak players won't invest 2 BB on a gutshot even if it is correct to do so. Some will fold bottom pair, although probably not many, and 2 out hands (getting the correct odds to call one bet) will certainly fold. The point of my rant is that you only need to average cleaning up one out or so in a pot this size.

[bernie]

"Playing the hand the way you reccomend, there will be at least 20 big bets in the pot when they have to call 2 bets on the turn"

where do you get 20bbs? at the start of the turn there are only going to be 10BB in the pot. say someone bets, call, call, there's 13, that's a ways off from at least 20. even if a cold caller figures the others to call (who've already put in a bet), it gives him 17-2. initially it's 13-2 on the call.

the move is also strong enough that it may scare someone who has odds to call, to fold.

anyways...

b

[Robk]

There are 14 BB in the pot before the flop (7 way cap)...

[Dynasty]

where do you get 20bbs?

I counted.

Pre-flop: 7 players for 4 bets = 14 big bets
Flop (hypothetical): 2.5 big bets (bet and 4 calls)
Turn (hypothetical): 4 big bets (bet, call, raise, ?)

That's 20.5 big bets. Or, is this one of those things that depends?

[bernie]

i glossed over the cap part.

my mistake.

that does make the turn move a little more insignifigant.

b

[bernie]

i missed the little 3 letter word. my mistake...

"Or, is this one of those things that depends? "

you and clark really seem to love this. maybe i missed the memo or something where holdem now became a definitive game. where situations mean nothing and there is only one way to play.

i guess it's to my detriment that i see multiple things possible in any given hand. obviously a sure sign of a longterm loser. and a hopeless idiot.

but please, i may need a copy of that. please post a copy if you could. or is it copywritten by stanford wong? since he does the definitive games and all....

bite me

b

[AceHigh]

You raise the flop because the draws will collude with AA and help the rockets charge the other players on the flop. On the turn the draws will not help you unless they make there hand. It's all about getting more money in the pot with the (probable) best hand and not about knocking people out.