Hand I play well??

[krishanleong]

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, MP calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, MP folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls.

River: (6.50 BB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 6.50 BB

Villian is 48/11/.6/51 over 97 hands.

Krishan

[Lmn55d]

nice, he seems passive so he's probably not betting a 2 into a field of 5. He's gonna have a better ace or queen trying to checkraise more often than a 2 or lower pocket pair

[Spicymoose]

What exactly was your question?

[krishanleong]

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What exactly was your question?

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River bet.

Krishan

[Spicymoose]

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What exactly was your question?

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River bet.

Krishan

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I think "no" is the answer.

[Victor]

bet the river bc he will call you with jj.

[Spicymoose]

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bet the river bc he will call you with jj.

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Uh... How often is JJ limping preflop. Bet/calling the flop, and calling the turn and river?

[Victor]

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bet the river bc he will call you with jj.

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Uh... How often is JJ limping preflop. Bet/calling the flop, and calling the turn and river?

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only a moron would limp with jj preflop. only a moron would call the river with jj here. hold on, what was the pf action again?

[Spicymoose]

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bet the river bc he will call you with jj.

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Uh... How often is JJ limping preflop. Bet/calling the flop, and calling the turn and river?

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only a moron would limp with jj preflop. only a moron would call the river with jj here. hold on, what was the pf action again?

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/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Sure, villain is a moron, but it is a real stretch to expect JJ and for him to call our bet.

[Victor]

by jj i mean kk-22.

[Spicymoose]

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by jj i mean kk-22.

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I still have a hard time believing that they bet the flop, and then call down to the river after being raised.

[DeezNutz3]

I like a river bet...like said any pocket pair is calling you and you might get a "curious" call out of a busted K high flush or str8 draw.

The river has to be bet and SpicyMoose needs to watch the 10-20 6max games if he thinks that 46/11/.6 wont call down with a worse hand after being raised on the flop. I've been called by pocket 7's here plenty of times.

Is this a standard limp? You dont have an equity edge preflop.

[TStoneMBD]

i think i like a check river. rest is good of course.

[Spicymoose]

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The river has to be bet and SpicyMoose needs to watch the 10-20 6max games if he thinks that 46/11/.6 wont call down with a worse hand after being raised on the flop. I've been called by pocket 7's here plenty of times.

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When you say that you have been called by pocket 7s "here" what do you mean? You have been in a situation where a smalll to medium PP bet the flop with 2 really scary overs, and then called down? When you say "plenty of times", you mean more than twice? Can you give me just 1 example?

I am guilty of not watching the games enough while I play though. I really need to learn how to watch how people are playing more.

[chio]

preflop is debatable, but i think postflop is more interesting

given that you're afraid of a better ace or a Q, i'd check through the turn and call a river bet. pot is small enough, this ensures you get to showdown (you're in a tough spot if he c/r the turn on a bluff, with a Q, or with a weak ace), and he'll bluff the river a decent amt of time if he was on a flush draw

[TStoneMBD]

its very unlikely that youll be checkraised off the best hand on the turn so you might as well bet. if the river is a card smaller than 8 you have an easy value bet because your kicker plays. checking the turn loses value.

[Lmn55d]

it seems to me that the type of player who limps preflop with JJ does not bet it into 4 people on an AQx flop. I agree, however, that if he did somehow arrive at the river with JJ he is calling.

[stlip]

I bet the river.

True, there aren't many hands that you expect to see call that you can beat. But most or all of the hands that beat you would have 3 bet the flop or c/r'd the turn. Villain may simply be the curious sort and call with a range of hands where he ought to know better.

[krishanleong]

I think this would be a horrendous river bet. For everyone who says bet, what do you do if raised? You call right? Because he can't possibly have you beat. that sucks.

Most of the time you bet the river you will split. The number of times you win a bet is roughly equal to the number of times you lose to a better ace. The times you get check raised and payoff I think make this a loser.

Krishan

[Entity]

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Is this a standard limp? You dont have an equity edge preflop.

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You don't need an equity edge preflop to limp on the button.

[Surfbullet]

I bet the river b/c missing value makes baby jesus cry.

I'm willing to listen to a counterargument though. This type of player is pretty straightforward and would likely have c/r'd a Q on the turn if he had one. There's a chance we're outkicked, but there's also a bigger chance he's a donk who will call with a PP/2/K-hi, etc. It really is astonishing what these guys will call with here.

Surf

[Surfbullet]

Why in hell would you pay off a river raise against a 47/11/.6 here?

We've got top pair, but it's time to read the board and consider our opponent's postflop tendencies. Maybe 1 time in 50 he's pulling the greatest river c/r ever with a Q-hi FD. He's raising nearly always with a better hand.

Surf

[Wynton]

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I think this would be a horrendous river bet. For everyone who says bet, what do you do if raised? You call right? Because he can't possibly have you beat. that sucks.

Most of the time you bet the river you will split. The number of times you win a bet is roughly equal to the number of times you lose to a better ace. The times you get check raised and payoff I think make this a loser.

Krishan

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I was going to say check, but I think you just talked me out of it. If this player is c/r us on the river, isn't that a pretty easy laydown? In that case, the fact that we might get c/r doesn't appear to me to be a great argument against betting.

I think you actually could get called by more worse hands than better hands and splitting hands, so would have to vote for bet/fold.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
Why in hell would you pay off a river raise against a 47/11/.6 here?

We've got top pair, but it's time to read the board and consider our opponent's postflop tendencies. Maybe 1 time in 50 he's pulling the greatest river c/r ever with a Q-hi FD. He's raising nearly always with a better hand.

Surf

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True so you fold to a cr. It is easy. I still don't think there is much value here.

Krishan

Pre-flop is raise or fold. I hate limping here.
Other than that I think it's fine. There really isn't much you can beat once he calls your river bet, and I think with his stats A9 and AT are within his range.

[Lmn55d]

you think this sort of player bets the flop with king high??

[Surfbullet]

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you think this sort of player bets the flop with king high??

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in an unraised pot? Sure, if hes got a gutshot/flush draw. I had a 40/4/.4 guy take a stab at a flop like this yesterday with a K-hi gutshot and call down the whole way UI even after I raised the flop.

Now K-hi isn't particularly high among his likely holdings, but it's a chance. I don't think it pays off a river bet much, either. I bet for value from PPs, but as I said in my other post i'm very open to hearing a counterargument.

Surf

[Surfbullet]

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Why in hell would you pay off a river raise against a 47/11/.6 here?

We've got top pair, but it's time to read the board and consider our opponent's postflop tendencies. Maybe 1 time in 50 he's pulling the greatest river c/r ever with a Q-hi FD. He's raising nearly always with a better hand.

Surf

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True so you fold to a cr. It is easy. I still don't think there is much value here.

Krishan

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That's true. Most time, we'll bet, and he'll fold. Say when he calls, we tie 50% of the time. Are we ahead more than 25% of the remaining 50%? I'm not sure. It's razor-thin, though. I'd love for someone to do some math on this, I would but I've gotta get some hands in.

Surf

[Lmn55d]

i think k high may very well call the river and pocket pairs too. But i just doint think pocket pairs bet the flop, call the raise, and call the turn very often at all. You've got a point about k high gutshots and flush draws but I dont think these make up enough of the range of hands that he calls the river with. He's passive so you can't rule out bigger aces or queens.

[Surfbullet]

yeah, true. This is really close though. I probably check behind in practice unless i'm confident my opp would have raised a better hand, and will call with a worse one.

Surf

[baronzeus]

FWIW i'd bet any river lower than an 8, but this since an 8 came, i think it's a super close value bet since his 11 pfr means he probably raises AJ+. you aren't losing to much, but you arent beating much either.
very little difference in EV between betting and checking

[sthief09]

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What exactly was your question?

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River bet.


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not even close

[Victor]

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What exactly was your question?

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River bet.


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not even close

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oooohhh. mysterious....

[sthief09]

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by jj i mean kk-22.

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I still have a hard time believing that they bet the flop, and then call down to the river after being raised.

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i agree. the flop bet is the big thing. he has an A, maaaaybe a Q, or a flush draw. the times he has a non-board kicker way makes up for the times he has a flush draw

[sthief09]

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What exactly was your question?

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River bet.


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not even close

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oooohhh. mysterious....

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i didnt realize at the time there was an argument for betting. there is almost 0 upside to a bet

[sthief09]

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FWIW i'd bet any river lower than an 8, but this since an 8 came, i think it's a super close value bet since his 11 pfr means he probably raises AJ+. you aren't losing to much, but you arent beating much either.
very little difference in EV between betting and checking

[/ QUOTE ]


can someone tell me if another $40 will increase the rake? that alone makes it a check

[sthief09]

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Pre-flop is raise or fold. I hate limping here.
Other than that I think it's fine. There really isn't much you can beat once he calls your river bet, and I think with his stats A9 and AT are within his range.

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does that mean you are raising A9o here? that hand is definitely not a fold. i cant see raising multiple limpers with that though. a raise is usually going to bring in one blind. i think id rather have 5 for one bet than 4 for two. and most importantly, they wont just check to the raiser. id rather them have more pure actions. if the flop is K high i might be tempted to bet if checked to, but if its unraised, i can count on a K to bet

[krishanleong]

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What exactly was your question?

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River bet.


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not even close

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oooohhh. mysterious....

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i didnt realize at the time there was an argument for betting. there is almost 0 upside to a bet

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Thanks for confirmation Josh.

Krishan

[NLSoldier]

I think this is exactly the type of hand that I sometimes value bet and definately should not be.

[krishanleong]

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I think this is exactly the type of hand that I sometimes value bet and definately should not be.

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This is why I was proud of the hand. I bet this a lot too.

Krishan

[Surfbullet]

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I think this is exactly the type of hand that I sometimes value bet and definately should not be.

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This is why I was proud of the hand. I bet this a lot too.

Krishan

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me too. More re-learning to do.

Surf

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does that mean you are raising A9o here?

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Depends on the limpers' stats. In this case yes.

[ QUOTE ]
that hand is definitely not a fold. i cant see raising multiple limpers with that though. a raise is usually going to bring in one blind. i think id rather have 5 for one bet than 4 for two.


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I disagree. I think A8o is close to a fold. I also would rather have 3 opponents for 2 bets than 4 for 1 (you put 1 extra in your numbers).

[ QUOTE ]

and most importantly, they wont just check to the raiser. id rather them have more pure actions. if the flop is K high i might be tempted to bet if checked to, but if its unraised, i can count on a K to bet

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You could use that argument for any starting hand.
From now on I'm going to limp with every starting hand so that my opponents' actions will be pure. Is A8o difficult to play against 3 opponents when you don't hit an ace? Yes, most definitely. No one is requiring you to bet when checked to. If they flop a pair and you don't, and they check to you, and you check behind them, that's their mistake. They cost themselves the pot when you hit an ace on the turn. If they donk you, I will argue that that's more pure than when they bet into an unraised pot.

Will A8o win more than it's fair share? Barely, and only against loose limpers. Why let in the blinds for free against a hand that's already very vulnerable to multiway action?

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I'd love for someone to do some math on this

[/ QUOTE ]
It's too hard to do the math when his range is ummmmm...half the deck.

I'm gonna go along with Surf, Victor and that stranger guy with 6 posts on this one. I like a river bet.

47/11/0.6:

Could he have any ace (tied or bigger)?
Sure. All aces up to AJ and maybe even AQ are possible limps for this guy.

Could he have a pocket pair?
Sure. 33-JJ are possible limps too. He's not folding on the river with any of those.

Could he have a flush draw?
Sure. Endless possible flush draws. The king high ones may even pay your river bet.

Could he have two broadway cards?
Sure. You may get paid off there too.

Could he have a suited deuce?
Sure. Two pair (queens up) is definitely paying you off.

Could he have a queen?
Sure. But keep this in mind....A LPP will most often donk a queen on the river. If he happens not to, that's fine also. He can't get 2 bets from us on the river anyway. One other thing:

When is the last time anyone here has seen a LPP make two moves in the same hand? If he leads the flop with air or a draw, you can bet your houses, cars and girlfriends that his river c/r means you lose. Super duper EEE-Z fold.


We (as a group of 2+2ers) really need to stop applying TAG logic to maniacal and LPP players. They don't think like we do....they just don't. They will attempt bluffs with a 1% success rate. They will make calldowns that have zero shot of being good. They don't know or care to know their opponents, or their opponents' hand ranges. And if a LPP has 99 here, he's not folding after betting the flop. As a matter of fact, when the queen comes, he probably says to himself, "oooh, now I have TWO pair!"


Here's a hand from about an hour ago against a 53/6/0.5

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter (http://www.pokerhand.org)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB completes, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP calls, SB calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises</font>, SB folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, MP calls.

Turn: (6 BB) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP calls.

River: (8 BB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP calls.

Final Pot: 10 BB

Results below:
Hero has 2d Ad (two pair, aces and kings).
MP has 7d 4c (one pair, kings).
Outcome: Hero wins 10 BB.


I know one hand doesn't prove anything, but that just shows you what a LPP's brain is capable of thinking or not thinking.

We (as a group of 2+2ers) really need to stop applying TAG logic to maniacal and LPP players. They don't think like we do....they just don't. They will attempt bluffs with a 1% success rate. They will make calldowns that have zero shot of being good. They don't know or care to know their opponents, or their opponents' hand ranges. And if a LPP has 99 here, he's not folding after betting the flop. As a matter of fact, when the queen comes, he probably says to himself, "oooh, now I have TWO pair!"

Agreed