Someone please help me explain this to my mother

[Landon_McFly]

I need OOT’s logic to help me out here.

Kinda long, but interesting IMO.

I went out to eat with my mom tonight, and she told me this crazy story.

I’ll put it in her words because I think it’ll be easier to read this way.

Mom: I never told you this, but about a year ago this woman I work with gave me this lady’s business card. She can supposedly talk to dead people. I found the card in my purse yesterday and for some strange reason I decided to give it a shot.

I went to the woman’s house, and I found out she doesn’t even have set prices. She takes donations, and is a stay at home mom who thinks she has this power to talk to the dead. I was completely skeptical of the situation from the beginning, but I decided to hear what she had to say.

The woman closed her eyes and started just saying random things. I never answered anything she said unless she directly asked me a question. The first thing she told me was that someone wanted to thank me for their toenails. She asked me who it could be. I told her I didn’t know, and then she went through the motions again. Then she asked me if my mother’s name was the same as the little girl from house on the prairie (Nellie). I was stunned. My mom’s name is Nella, and I used to cut her toenails for her in the months leading up to her death (she was over 85 years old).

Then she said that my mother thinks I need to get over my first relationship (my mother was married at the age of 18, but got an annulment (My mom and dad never married, but have happily been together for over 22 years.). She said my mother talks to my ex-husband frequently. I found this very strange because I haven’t talked to my ex-husband ever since you were born.

She said that my mother wants to thank me for the petunias she bought her before her funeral (My mom said she’s only bought petunias once in her life, and it was after my grandmother died.).

She asked me mom who Richard is (that’s my dad).

After that, she said that someone wanted to let her know that he had to leave her so he could be with his son. The woman told my mom that she sensed that it was a suicide (Nobody in my family has killed themselves, but my cousin was killed in a race car accident, and one year later his dad died in a similar race car accident. Everyone always knew that my uncle’s life had completely turned to [censored] after his son died, and I’m sure he’d contemplated suicide.).

The woman started rubbing her hands up and down her own arm and on her back and asked me who had to get treated for burns. (My mom couldn’t recall at the time, but my cousin had suffered a horrible burn that caused him to get a skin graft on his arm and upper back.)

She told me that my mother likes the new bed sheets I bought (My mom said she bought new bed sheets two months ago, but before that it’s been over 10 years since she bought new ones).

She asked me the significance of December 11. I told her it meant nothing to me, and then said maybe November 11 (The day my mom was married).

Next she said that my mother likes the fake bricks (My mom didn’t realize it until later, but we’re building a new house, and in the kitchen there’s some type of brick used, but my dad sad the brick isn’t real)

Now I’m very skeptical of dumb [censored] like this, and I was so mad that my mom actually believed this stuff, but after thinking to myself about some of the stuff I was wondering… How can I prove to my mom that this isn’t real? The only explanation I could give is that the human brain is good at recognizing when things “hit,” but a much tougher time noticing when they “miss”.

So after I tried to tell her why there’s no way this is possible, she told me the really wacky thing. Today while she was at home for lunch, her ex-husband called. He asked her how she’s been, and said that he’d love to take her out to eat sometime because there’s some things he wants to talk to her about.

I’m sure you guys can think of a logical way I can explain this to her. She knows I’m weary of gimmicks like this and that’s why she wanted to talk to me before she talks to my dad about it.

I’m sure there are some people that believe in stuff like this, but to me it’s complete [censored]. I just wish I knew a way to expose frauds like John Edwards, and I feel that my mom has suckered to the max. She’s told her four sisters, and of course they all believe her. As a matter of fact my aunt is trying to schedule an appointment herself.

What’s my play?

Since you took all the time to listen to my dilemma I gotta hook you up with a hottie.
http://www.vnn.vn/dataimages/original/images645567_Kim_Smith_Maxim.jpg

[tonypaladino]

[b]The woman closed her eyes and started just saying random things. ... She asked me the significance of December 11. I told her it meant nothing to me, and then said maybe November 11 ...

Cold Reading (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_reading)

I'll read it again in the morning. As for the first few paragraphs:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v253/scorev1/orly.jpg

[Landon_McFly]

[ QUOTE ]
Cold Reading (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_reading)

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow. My mom got pwned.

She's gonna beat that chicks ass when she see this. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[Paluka]

[ QUOTE ]

She asked me the significance of December 11. I told her it meant nothing to me, and then said maybe November 11

[/ QUOTE ]

Not November eh? October? I know, I bet September 11th means something to you....

[Warik]

Have her watch that episode of "Pen & Teller Bullsh*t!" that deals with psychics and those who allegedly talk to the dead.

Also keep in mind that your mom may have been a "victim" of Cold Reading as Tony Paladino linked. It will be hard to explain to your mom that she was had when you weren't there to see.

Finally, point out the fact that all this lady did was tell your mom things that SHE ALREADY KNEW. Wow. What a talent! Fish for information and get confirmation from the subject when you catch something. Quite impressive! Ask your mom if this lady ever gave her any information she DIDN'T know that would actually be useful?

Any legitimate psychic would have at least been able to listen to grandma telling her to tell mom to tell YOU to not post on OOT about how she's a quack.

[Landon_McFly]

[ QUOTE ]

Not November eh? October? I know, I bet September 11th means something to you....


[/ QUOTE ]

Yea, that's when Jay-Z's The Blueprint came out.

[man]

I don't see why it's so hard for you guys to accept that psychic abilities are possible.

I think the majority of cases are subjects of delusion. but given that the probability of the coincidences mentioned are on the order of one in a billion, or a million, or whatever, it seems reasonable to say that there's something to it. aren't most of you mathematically adpet? of course you can dismiss it all as a coincidence. but the lower the probability becomes, the more you have to accept that it's equally probable, or even more probable, that these predictions actually are guided by psychic abilities.

in short, I think it's enough to say that there are some things in life we can't explain, and we have to accept these things. you don't have to find a rational justification for everything, because for some things, it simply doesn't exist.

edit: syntax

[craig r]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't see why it's so hard for you guys to accept that psychic abilities are possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

I knew this entire thread would suck before I clicked on it.

craig

[Blarg]

You're off the mark here. It's not about math. It's about the concept of cold reading.

And saying that this is almost certainly a case of cold reading is not to deny anything and everything psychic or paranormal. It's just to say that this is an old trick.

If there is anything we "have to accept," this doesn't qualify.

[SackUp]

have her watch the south park episode - "Biggest Douche in the universe" where they destroy John Edwards - a so called psychic.

[Landon_McFly]

[ QUOTE ]
Cold Reading (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_reading)


[/ QUOTE ]

He solved the problem already

[Double Down]

So how do we explain things such as how the psychic guessed the mother's name and the petunias at the funeral thing? Those are pretty darn specific.

Theres a really good southpark about a psychic. Check it out.

[tonypaladino]

DD,

"So how do we explain things such as how the psychic guessed the mother's name and the petunias at the funeral thing? Those are pretty darn specific. "

The same way you explain most things most people do. Confusion and stupidity.

[JonPKibble]

tl;dr

[MelchyBeau]

[ QUOTE ]

I don't see why it's so hard for you guys to accept that psychic abilities are possible.


[/ QUOTE ]

Why is it so hard for you to believe that Elvis is alive? So many people have claimed to seen elvis. So it must be true right?

Melch

[evil_twin]

Book on cold reading. (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0940669420/qid=1133713842/sr=8-2/ref=pd_bbs_2/104-9918842-3339144?n=507846&s=books&v=glance)

There is a "magician" (he is more than that really) in the UK called Derren Brown. He did an entire show once pretending to be physcic, and was very convincing, enough to have members of the audience in shock/tears etc. Afterwards he explained it was all fake. He's worth looking out for, not sure if he's been exported to the US.

Along with Penn and Teller he's a great debunker.

[man]

[ QUOTE ]
Why is it so hard for you to believe that Elvis is alive? So many people have claimed to seen elvis. So it must be true right?

Melch

[/ QUOTE ]

Melch,

I think that given that elvis is a pretty recognizable character, but not completely unique, it seems reasonable that a lot of elvis fans could catch a glimpse of a guy who looks like elvis, and because they just want to believe it, or because they want to be famous, they'll report it to others.

but just because they claim to have seen them doesn't mean they actually did see him. as a matter of probability, it seems completely reasonable that a few thousand americans fit this description.

in short, I don't think you read my argument well. or maybe I didn't write it well. whatever. the point is that the more cases that stack up, the lower the probability of sheer coincidence becomes.

probably,
man

[WackityWhiz]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why is it so hard for you to believe that Elvis is alive? So many people have claimed to seen elvis. So it must be true right?

Melch

[/ QUOTE ]

Melch,

I think that given that elvis is a pretty recognizable character, but not completely unique, it seems reasonable that a lot of elvis fans could catch a glimpse of a guy who looks like elvis, and because they just want to believe it, or because they want to be famous, they'll report it to others.

but just because they claim to have seen them doesn't mean they actually did see him. as a matter of probability, it seems completely reasonable that a few thousand americans fit this description.

in short, I don't think you read my argument well. or maybe I didn't write it well. whatever. the point is that the more cases that stack up, the lower the probability of sheer coincidence becomes.

probably,
man

[/ QUOTE ]

http://membres.lycos.fr/theczar/jimcarrey/photos-films/dumbanddumber/dumbanddumber10.jpg

so you're saying there's a chance...

[man]

[ QUOTE ]
so you're saying there's a chance...

[/ QUOTE ]
yes.

I can't think of any witty picture to post.

[Duke]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't see why it's so hard for you guys to accept that psychic abilities are possible.

I think the majority of cases are subjects of delusion. but given that the probability of the coincidences mentioned are on the order of one in a billion, or a million, or whatever, it seems reasonable to say that there's something to it. aren't most of you mathematically adpet? of course you can dismiss it all as a coincidence. but the lower the probability becomes, the more you have to accept that it's equally probable, or even more probable, that these predictions actually are guided by psychic abilities.

in short, I think it's enough to say that there are some things in life we can't explain, and we have to accept these things. you don't have to find a rational justification for everything, because for some things, it simply doesn't exist.

edit: syntax

[/ QUOTE ]

Edit it again to start with: "I am currently posting from a location where it is opposite day."

~D

[Duke]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why is it so hard for you to believe that Elvis is alive? So many people have claimed to seen elvis. So it must be true right?

Melch

[/ QUOTE ]

Melch,

I think that given that elvis is a pretty recognizable character, but not completely unique, it seems reasonable that a lot of elvis fans could catch a glimpse of a guy who looks like elvis, and because they just want to believe it, or because they want to be famous, they'll report it to others.

but just because they claim to have seen them doesn't mean they actually did see him. as a matter of probability, it seems completely reasonable that a few thousand americans fit this description.

in short, I don't think you read my argument well. or maybe I didn't write it well. whatever. the point is that the more cases that stack up, the lower the probability of sheer coincidence becomes.

probably,
man

[/ QUOTE ]

http://membres.lycos.fr/theczar/jimcarrey/photos-films/dumbanddumber/dumbanddumber10.jpg

so you're saying there's a chance...

[/ QUOTE ]

What was all that one in a million talk?

~D

[Jack of Arcades]

[ QUOTE ]
So how do we explain things such as how the psychic guessed the mother's name and the petunias at the funeral thing? Those are pretty darn specific.

[/ QUOTE ]

The mother has selective memory, probably, and doesn't remember all the times the psychic was fishing for information and comign up with nothing.

[gorie]

i saw a movie once where the psychic only accepted donations, rather than charging a fee, and she was really psychic. so it's probably a real psychic.

[MelchyBeau]

[ QUOTE ]

Melch,

I think that given that elvis is a pretty recognizable character, but not completely unique, it seems reasonable that a lot of elvis fans could catch a glimpse of a guy who looks like elvis, and because they just want to believe it, or because they want to be famous, they'll report it to others.

but just because they claim to have seen them doesn't mean they actually did see him. as a matter of probability, it seems completely reasonable that a few thousand americans fit this description.

in short, I don't think you read my argument well. or maybe I didn't write it well. whatever. the point is that the more cases that stack up, the lower the probability of sheer coincidence becomes.

probably,
man

[/ QUOTE ]

I got your point, you were trying to said it is quite probable that there are psychics due to 'math'. Well no. There is a phrase "there are 3 types of lies, Lies, damn lies, and statistics" You can't use probability at this point especially when you don't have all the data. You are only hearing about the times that the psychic was correct. You aren't hearing about the times that the psychics were completely wrong.

There are people who have extraordinary abilities to read nonverbals. Most of these people use these types of abilities.

Bottom line people are gullible. Thats why the Nigerian scammers still operate. Or why spammers still make money etc.

Melch

[HopeydaFish]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So how do we explain things such as how the psychic guessed the mother's name and the petunias at the funeral thing? Those are pretty darn specific.

[/ QUOTE ]

The mother has selective memory, probably, and doesn't remember all the times the psychic was fishing for information and comign up with nothing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Also, there were a few "little girls" on Little House on The Prairie, and one of the little girls was bound to have a name that resembled someone that the OP's mother's knew. And if it turned out that the mother didn't know anyone with such a name, the cold reader would have quickly moved on and the "Little House" line of questioning would then be forgotten by the mother.

I used to visit this site quite often: James Randi (http://www.randi.org/)
He's on a crusade to expose fraud artists who claim paranormal powers.

[man]

it's hard to make this argument from probability, because you can't calculate the probablity. I'm just going off of what *seems* like a wildly improbable event (that being the combination of very improbable events).

there are probably a lot of psychics who use cold reading, or whatever other techniques there are. there are probably people who would do this, but I can't imagine that every psychic out there gets off on decieving people. and this woman clearly isn't in it for the money.

my main point is that simply that something can't be proved isn't sufficient grounds for dismissing it. there are a lot of things like this. like, I dunno, God. I think the only answer we can give while still maintaining our intellectual self-respect (for now, I guess) is "I dunno."

several of my friends (a few guys in their forties) have seen ghosts. a guy my brother used to work with would give him things that he needed because he "felt a tremor in the force." a guy I know is friends with native americans who shapeshift. there's no reasonable explanation for these things other than "they're lying and/or mistaken." that's why I sort of think it's pointless to argue that it doesn't exist, because the only means of doing that requires someone to have f-ed up. does it really make you guys that uncomfortable to think that our current means of understanding the world are insufficient?

[Blarg]

Just because she asks for donations doesn't mean she isn't into money. People might well give more in donations than they would be willing to pay, especially if they were astonished by the psychic's "powers" on the one hand or afraid that a less than generous donation might cut off her services later. You are not drawing an accurate conclusion here.


[ QUOTE ]
does it really make you guys that uncomfortable to think that our current means of understanding the world are insufficient?

[/ QUOTE ]

It doesn't make me uncomfortable at all to think that our ability to understand the world is limited; in fact I take it for granted. What does make me uncomfortable is how easily people let their standards of reason evaporate in a demeaning desperation to try to find answers, and how sad the results can be. That the emotional pain of someone's family member or friend dying should be exploited and used to lead them into abandoning reason makes me uncomfortable. That people's personal traumas and need for certainty in an uncertain world should make them go down such a sad and crooked road makes me sad. That their vulnerability, sorrow, and loneliness in an indifferent, overwhelming universe sometimes prompts them to dump large sums of money, or any money at all, into the pockets of predators offering false hope sometimes makes me quite sad and uncomfortable if I happen to think about it, and perhaps even a little angry.

[man]

[ QUOTE ]
Just because she asks for donations doesn't mean she isn't into money. People might well give more in donations than they would be willing to pay, especially if they were astonished by the psychic's "powers" on the one hand or afraid that a less than generous donation might cut off her services later. You are not drawing an accurate conclusion here.

[/ QUOTE ]
I seriously doubt that her profits are maximized in this way. but perhaps she doesn't want to go through the stress of managing a business. it isn't central to my point though.

[ QUOTE ]
What does make me uncomfortable is how easily people let their standards of reason evaporate in a demeaning desperation to try to find answers, and how sad the results can be.

[/ QUOTE ]
well you have to admit that the results are only sad if you don't believe what's happening. but I understand what you're saying. although I think that you can criticise the "pyschics" who take advantage of people without rejecting psychic powers in general. but it's a fine line fo sho.

[Blarg]

I don't think you're in any position to say what maximizes her money. And certainly imputing charitable motives to her or implying or inferring that she's one of those rare souls who doesn't care about money is pushing pretty hard on a foundation that falls somewhere between very shaky and non-existent.

If you have to "believe" what's happening, it's not a fit way to think for an adult. It should stand up to scrutiny with or without belief or desire.

[youtalkfunny]

You can't take James Randi seriously. He can't even handle a single shot of vodka. Though I'll never understand where Potsie came up with a shot of vodka backstage of a high school auditorium.

(Even though you young guys won't get that one, I can only hope you can recognize it, like I had to figure out references to Rochester and Festus in my younger days. But seriously, Randi's the man.)

[Ringo_Mojo]

These "Psychics" are scam artists pure and simple. A lot of them try to rationalize what they do as "therapy" that they're giving people closure etc etc. And thats just them scamming themselves, they're using people's fond memories of lost loved ones to mainipulate and steal from people. Its disgusting.

If you want to see how cold reading works, then The penn and teller [censored] show does a great job of it.

And on the topic of James Randi, he's had an offer for decades now to give One Million Dollars to anyone who can show him a real psychic ability, it has yet to be claimed. So this woman really has these incredible powers why is she taking donations and not going to collect from Randi?