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Entity
12-04-2005, 02:14 AM
Multitabling 16/10 TAG raises UTG in a 9-handed game. Folded to you in MP1. You've got 88.

You...

tpir90036
12-04-2005, 02:20 AM
16/10, yuck, sounds like my weak-ass stats.

Anyway, if they are multitabling they might not have a good enough read to interpret your coldcall for exactly what it is. But they also might be more willing to give up if you 3-bet them and they miss....but your hand is not all that hot vs. their range. I need to think about this more. I know what I would do, but I think it's way wrong. And I am not sure why what I wrote was centered around the multitabling aspect so much.

shemp
12-04-2005, 02:29 AM
Since they are utg that typically means far fewer raises than their average of 10%. At around 5.5%, they are raising 99+, AJs+, and AQo+ -- ie, half their hands are bigger pairs, and the other half are overs. The blinds and looseness of other people does matter...

B Dids
12-04-2005, 03:17 AM
I think I fold unless I have a really good reason not to (like the whole table will coldcall behind me). Like shemp says- pretty basic hand range thinking means you're assed out here a lot.

bakku
12-04-2005, 03:23 AM
holy crap muck

12-04-2005, 03:43 AM
a lot of other things must be taken into consideration here, how likely he is to fold postflop if he has overs and misses, how likely he is to fold JJ if AK hit, how many lags are behind you, etc, etc.... I make use of all three of these plays, but cold call very rarely and only to change up play from time to time

shemp
12-04-2005, 03:53 AM
[ QUOTE ]
how likely he is to fold JJ if AK hit,

[/ QUOTE ]

Gangsta.

Cold-calling in the hopes of knocking him of JJ on AK boards is daft. Gangsta, but daft.

He has at least an A or K in close to 60% of his hands and the remainder are big pairs, the kind of hands people are loathe to fold against people given to such silly enterprises.

CardSharpCook
12-04-2005, 04:33 AM
Yo. Gangsta! 3bet that shiznit, Killa!

(just kidding) It is a fold of course.

12-04-2005, 06:30 AM
would u consider this a clear fold if it were on the button and it was folded around after the raise, and what about on the button w/ another cold caller?

sfer
12-04-2005, 12:31 PM
What about 99. What if he's 16/8 and you have TT?

QTip
12-04-2005, 01:20 PM
[ QUOTE ]
What about 99. What if he's 16/8 and you have TT?

[/ QUOTE ]

I've been focusing on playing mid-pairs a bit more conservitavely. I used to treat 88 and 99 (sometimes lower) like I had TT or JJ. I've not been satisfied with my winrate for those pps. Over the last couple months, I keep pokerstove open during my sessions and just mess with it throughout the day as different scenarios come up. One thing I'm considering more is the type of game that I'm in. It seems that most tags will lighten their raising standards as the game gets tighter. Course, for some it may be the opposite. Against those, perhaps their range can be as solid as AQo, AJs+, TT+, to which even JJ is about even.

QTip
12-04-2005, 01:31 PM
[ QUOTE ]
What about 99. What if he's 16/8 and you have TT?

[/ QUOTE ]

Some things that I'm not really certain about along these lines are like...

If I were to run a sim on his range, do I have to be 50 or more?

What is position and initiative really worth as far as pushing a non-existant edge. A good example would be your TT against a 16/8 there. TT may be like 45% there. Will the blind money, position and initiative make up for the 5% deficit I have there?

I just don't know how to answer those.

I guess things like this come into play:

Will he call down with an A UI?

Is he a fit or fold?

Is he tricky with semi-bluff c/rs?

What does he think of me?

Probably a bunch of other things I'm missing as well. How low I can go against his range answering these questions...I don't know. I guess after he raises, there are about 3 sb in the pot, and I'm investing 3. On Friday, a 2+2er opened from MP3, and I 3 bet with a pair of 3s with tighties in the blinds. I figured I was probably in the upper 40s there. I'd like to hear more conversation on these lines for sure.

TStoneMBD
12-04-2005, 10:50 PM
i made a poll just like this in high stakes where a very tag player raises UTG and you have 99 UTG1. most people seemed to like 3betting but i still think its an easy fold.

chief444
12-04-2005, 11:54 PM
I think it's close. I think position and initiative are worth quite a bit against a tight and likely straightforward opponent. So if I expect it to get HU most of the time I'd 3-bet. Depends on the rest of the table as well though. If it's a typical weekend evening crowd I'd coldcall. I have no real issue with a fold.

12-06-2005, 12:41 PM
i am definitly in the minority with the cold call here.. chances are you arent gonna like a non-set flop.. so maybe he has AK or AQ.. you're still ahead preflop.. i would call here and hope to get heads up because 3-bet you invest too much money in the hand, and it also opens you up for a 4-bet from him if hes that strong.

6%! :-/

Brom
12-06-2005, 12:50 PM
I voted for fold. One of my main considerations was my position. There's just too many people behind me and I'd hate for it to get 3-bet somewhere down the line.

BigEndian
12-06-2005, 02:16 PM
I can't believe so many people are folding. This is an easy cold call for me and I do it regularly and play poker past the flop. I don't think 3-betting is the right play unless you plan on using that as information to maybe make an earlier exit from the hand which has it's merits.

- Jim

Chief911
12-06-2005, 03:30 PM
Wow. You guys really think this is such an obvious fold?

Lets assume a few things using the party 15/30 as an example (Because I like to assume):

1. Lets assume that there will be one more cold caller between you and the blinds, and one of the blinds is gonna tag along. This isn't that far fetched, as people LOVE to cold call once its started. Especially those 45/5's.
2. Total pot going to the flop of $135 or so. So, you are obviously getting far from good odds to call preflop if we KNOW that he has AA. But, in situations like this, it can easily be assumed that the final pot value is going to be atleast 10-15BB.
3. You are going to win probably 90% of the 11.8% that you flop a set.

So, you are CC'ing $30 for the 10% chance to win $300+ pot (And many times more than that if somoene really does have AA). While you will contribute probably 1/4th the pot.

It would appear that you would have to think you could build a $400+ pot if you KNEW he had AA, and you KNEW a few people were going to CC behind.

Ok, I'm too lazy to delete this, I'll have to come back later. Maybe I'm swinging away from CC'ing, even though I do exactly that right now.

Nick