Bet, bet, ...

[Aaron W.]

Limper in front of me is super loose. I mean 80 VPIP super loose. He's not particularly aggressive, either. This is was I raised to isolate him with a weaker holding than I would normally have. BB is very new to the table, so I have no read on him.

Do you follow through on the turn? What about the river?

Paradise Poker 1/2 Hold'em (5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls, MP calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, MP checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, MP folds.

Turn: (4.25 BB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls.

River: (6.25 BB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero...

[PokerSparky]

I would have bet the turn. I check the river.

[Disconnected]

I'd check behind here. I don't think given the texture of the board that you'll be able to fold a better hand with a bet; if he hasn't folded by now, that river won't do it, and it's hard to imagine a weaker hand paying off.

[milesdyson]

i don't like the isolation attempt without knowledge that both blinds are really tight. even then it would be marginal in my opinion.

i don't see the choice on the river there. if he has called you down thus far with ace high, he will call again. if he has called with any pair, he will call again. there aren't any worse hands for him to call you with, as you split with any K (most unknowns don't find a call here with jack high).

so it's a very standard check through.

[scotty34]

Could you explain to me why you would consider betting this river?

[Chairman Wood]

better holdings call, busted draws fold, if you check you beat nearly every busted draw. I see no reason to bet here.

If he could fold an ace than this river bet is mandatory; it is unlikely he will fold an ace.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
If he could fold an ace than this river bet is mandatory; it is unlikely he will fold an ace.

[/ QUOTE ]

Based on...

[milesdyson]

it is nowhere near mandatory to bet here if he would fold an ace.

the guy has to have an ace in the first place. do the range - give him every possible ace, every possible pocket pair, and every possible pair of 4 or 9. say he only folds the aces. i'm sure it won't be "mandatory."

plus, a player who will check call the turn with ace high is more likely than not a player who will also check call the river with ace high. this is another factor against betting.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
do the range - give him every possible ace, every possible pocket pair, and every possible pair of 4 or 9.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you think all pocket pairs check-call the the flop and turn on a super-ragged board?

[milesdyson]

thinking through the mind of a random party poker 1/2 6-max player, yeah it's pretty standard. a majority of the players there are way too passive.

[imported_leader]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If he could fold an ace than this river bet is mandatory; it is unlikely he will fold an ace.

[/ QUOTE ]

Based on...

[/ QUOTE ]

He just called you twice with A-high

[meep_42]

Seems like a very thin isolation holding to me. And i've been really LAGgy in isolating since I moved to 5/10.

-d

[imported_leader]

[ QUOTE ]
Seems like a very thin isolation holding to me. And i've been really LAGgy in isolating since I moved to 5/10.

-d

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, the lowest I think I'd go is K8o but mostly K9o though.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If he could fold an ace than this river bet is mandatory; it is unlikely he will fold an ace.

[/ QUOTE ]

Based on...

[/ QUOTE ]

He just called you twice with A-high

[/ QUOTE ]

Based on...

[imported_leader]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If he could fold an ace than this river bet is mandatory; it is unlikely he will fold an ace.

[/ QUOTE ]

Based on...

[/ QUOTE ]

He just called you twice with A-high

[/ QUOTE ]

Based on...

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't mean to be rude, but if he has A-high on the river...you bet twice...he's still there on the river...I think "He just called you twice with A-high" isn't that much of a jump.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Seems like a very thin isolation holding to me. And i've been really LAGgy in isolating since I moved to 5/10.

-d

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, the lowest I think I'd go is K8o but mostly K9o though.

[/ QUOTE ]

I consider Q7 to be the average of average hands. K7 is small step above average. Given that I have position on him, it's neutral to slightly +EV to play it. I'm not going to argue that this should be standard. I'm just going to argue that it's okay.

[imported_leader]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Seems like a very thin isolation holding to me. And i've been really LAGgy in isolating since I moved to 5/10.

-d

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, the lowest I think I'd go is K8o but mostly K9o though.

[/ QUOTE ]

I consider Q7 to be the average of average hands. K7 is small step above average. Given that I have position on him, it's neutral to slightly +EV to play it. I'm not going to argue that this should be standard. I'm just going to argue that it's okay.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not horrible or anything. I mean what's the differece between K8o and K7o? Not much. It's one of those feel plays. I think I'd like to have a better read on BB before doing this in general though.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If he could fold an ace than this river bet is mandatory; it is unlikely he will fold an ace.

[/ QUOTE ]

Based on...

[/ QUOTE ]

He just called you twice with A-high

[/ QUOTE ]

Based on...

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't mean to be rude, but if he has A-high on the river...you bet twice...he's still there on the river...I think "He just called you twice with A-high" isn't that much of a jump.

[/ QUOTE ]

There seem to be a large number of "ace chasers" who will peel liberally to snag an ace, but don't like to show down ace-high. I think it's too much of a jump to automatically assume that ace-high is calling.

[imported_leader]

You were there. I've never played Paradise 1/2 so you could be right.

[Aaron W.]

Okay, what was I thinking? Basically, I want to learn about villain. In particular, I want to know how far he's willing to go with his hand.

BB is new, and I don't know what he'll call with on the river. Something that frustrates me is when I check behind with king-high to get shown a weak ace. It's frustrating because I don't learn the useful bit of information, which is whether he's willing to call with just ace-high.

If BB calls with ace-high, it's not a terrible loss. I'll simply never bluff at him ever again and know that I can value bet the heck out of him if he's just calling (and also I know to take free cards with unpaired hands). I don't mind throwing in an extra bet early in a session (or early after villain sits down) because it helps me to better assess his playing style. If BB calls with some pair (pocket pair, or paired the board), I learn that he's passive against a PFR, which again helps me to assess his style and gives me a big clue about how to play him.

If BB folds, I would guess that BB is willing to chase weak draws, and I know that his flop/turn peels shouldn't be feared (unless he had 35, he was chasing overcards or a gutshot or maybe a backdoor flush draw).

It also makes me look like a crazy aggro LAG if I show down my hand (which is how I played this hand). That's perfectly fine by me. I'll just shift to more value betting and less semi-bluffing/bluffing for a while.

[MrWookie47]

I understand your reasoning for wanting to get the information about this guy, but seldom is the information worth the money you pay for it. Frequently you can get the same data for free. Even if you get shown A high here, I think you can still know that he's willing to peel extremely loosley on the turn with a crappy hand.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
I understand your reasoning for wanting to get the information about this guy, but seldom is the information worth the money you pay for it. Frequently you can get the same data for free. Even if you get shown A high here, I think you can still know that he's willing to peel extremely loosley on the turn with a crappy hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. The turn bets are more or less automatic when I know he's probably not going to check-raise me. Checking behind and losing to A high only suggests that I should be betting a pair on the turn if I bet it on the flop. But I would do this most of the time anyway. So that extra information isn't doing much for me. I think it's much harder to figure out what is a good value bet on the river and what isn't.

[jrz1972]

[ QUOTE ]
Okay, what was I thinking? Basically, I want to learn about villain. In particular, I want to know how far he's willing to go with his hand.

BB is new, and I don't know what he'll call with on the river. Something that frustrates me is when I check behind with king-high to get shown a weak ace. It's frustrating because I don't learn the useful bit of information, which is whether he's willing to call with just ace-high.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with this line of thinking in the strongest possible terms. I'm not throwing away a BB just to find out whether this particular unknown will call down with A-high when I'll probably play a grand total of a dozen or so hands against this guy over the remainder of my life. If you're beating this game for 4bb/100, you just squandered 1/4 of your winrate on this one hand.

This is a super-easy check-behind IMO.

[jrz1972]

[ QUOTE ]
The turn bets are more or less automatic when I know he's probably not going to check-raise me. Checking behind and losing to A high only suggests that I should be betting a pair on the turn if I bet it on the flop. But I would do this most of the time anyway. So that extra information isn't doing much for me. I think it's much harder to figure out what is a good value bet on the river and what isn't.

[/ QUOTE ]

Notice that *if* this situation happens to come up again, the information you spent 1bb to get *may* allow you squeeze in an extra value bet that *may* recoup your loss on this hand.

That's way too much of a parlay to make this kind of play routinely, I think.