Live JJ hand

[sweetjazz]

I am playing in a live 2/5 game with a $200 buy-in. At the time of the hand I have about $215 in front of me, and the two people who bet in this hand both have me covered (preflop raiser about $400-$500 and flop bettor about $700-$800). The preflop raiser is loose and marginally aggressive before the flop; reverts to mostly calling or folding postflop once someone bets or raises. The flop bettor has been loose and pretty aggressive -- he hasn't been played back at very often, but from the few hands I have seen his aggressiveness is based on having hands like QJo and A8s that appear strong (to him). My image would have to be very tight, as I have been card-dead for several hours now. I don't know, however, whether my opponents have observed this and whether they will adjust even if they have.

In this hand, UTG limps, a MP limps, CO raises to $20, SB calls, I look down and see J /images/graemlins/heart.gif J /images/graemlins/spade.gif. I pause for a second to think about what to do, and I ended up deciding to call. UTG calls, MP folds. So it is four to the flop with $85 in the pot.

Flop is A /images/graemlins/heart.gif J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif. SB bets $50, and I raise to $125.

What do you think of my line so far (preflop call and flop raise)?

[4_2_it]

Pre-flop is fine. You definitely need to play for set value. All your chips are going in the middle. Since you don't have a large stack, an argument can be made for a push here; however maybe you draw an extra caller with a normal looking raise. I really don't like a call here unless you are certain somebody will raise, then you can push.

I like it a lot so far, actually. And I'm pushing the turn if he calls your re-raise on the flop. Looks like he likes his AK and will pay you off.

[Bukem_]

You can slowplay here.

[Andrew Fletcher]

You're in the BB, right? I assume you were calling to try to hit a set? It might be smart to raise, but since the other players have a very wide hand range and are loose as hell, you can easily find yourself behind after the flop. I'd like a raise with AA, KK, AK, and maybe QQ. JJ is hard to play without position in a big multiway pot, so I think calling is the right move here. Some might disagree, but, that's my reasoning.

As for the flop raise, I like that too. Hopefully someone with an ace will be prepared to lose their entire stack to you.

[4_2_it]

[ QUOTE ]
You can slowplay here.

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I would agree except for his small stack. I don't think even a push is going to worry the big stack maniacs too much. SB looks like he will look you up with his AJ or 55. With deeper stacks I would definitely be inclined to slowplay this one.

Or do you think that his stack is big enough to concern the others? My experience in live play is that you tend to get more action with raises than you do online.

[pho75]

I think this is one of those times where slowplaying might be the better line. The only cards you don't want to see are a king or a queen, and an ace would be heaven (most of the time). If CO does have KK or QQ, he'll correcly fold to your raise, but might make a mistake and call the $50. If he's got AK or AQ and you raise he might drop it. But if you just call, you've got him.

I think you should try to keep the preflop raiser in the hand.

[Bukem_]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You can slowplay here.

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I would agree except for his small stack. I don't think even a push is going to worry the big stack maniacs too much. SB looks like he will look you up with his AJ or 55. With deeper stacks I would definitely be inclined to slowplay this one.

Or do you think that his stack is big enough to concern the others? My experience in live play is that you tend to get more action with raises than you do online.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have such a monster on this flop, you want everyone in. LEt the 2 guys behind you in, don't scare them off. Thinking these guys have AJ and 55 is giving them way way way too much credit.

Free cards really don't hurt you, if someone pays 50 for a gutshot and gets there so be it.

Edit: BTW, in a cap game like this, this is the best flop you can get for jacks.

[4_2_it]

Alright you sold me on this one. With his short stack, he can probably just call down and his stack will be in by the river.

[Bukem_]

[ QUOTE ]
Alright you sold me on this one. With his short stack, he can probably just call down and his stack will be in by the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

You call, heads up with sb, let him bet for you. Bet if checked to.

You call, 1 guy comes along from behind.

Rest goes in on the turn. Doesn't matter how.

[Andrew Fletcher]

Ok, I see that there are good arguments for slow playing. It's live, which changes things a lot.

[ajmargarine]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You can slowplay here.

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With deeper stacks I would definitely be inclined to slowplay this one.


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It's already been hammered out it looks like, but let me add my 2 cents. This is perfect for slowplaying. Your stacks going in the middle and you want everyone elses stacks in there with you as well, so just call. You got an opportunity to win a monster pot. The only downside to slowplaying is with more players in the hand, you will get sucked out on a higher percentage of the time. But, that's a tradeoff I'll take.

With deeper stacks, I'd raise probably. Better to get one guys deep stack, than to take portions of multiple players stacks.

[4_2_it]

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With deeper stacks, I'd raise probably. Better to get one guys deep stack, than to take portions of multiple players stacks.

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I think with deep stacks you can build a nice pot and get a couple of villains committed to the hand, so you won't just be HU (which is still fine) most of the time. In this hand, the side has the potential to be just as large as the main pot.

[sweetjazz]

How much would your analysis change if the 5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif were the 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, putting a two-flush on board?

[4_2_it]

[ QUOTE ]
How much would your analysis change if the 5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif were the 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, putting a two-flush on board?

[/ QUOTE ]

Multi-way and a two-flush, slowplaying is more problematic. You have raise here. The good news is that many times flush draws will overpay.

[Cosimo]

[ QUOTE ]
I have about $215 in front of me ... CO raises to $20 ... I call ... SB bets $50, and I raise to $125.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have a question about a raise here. With this raise, you've only got $70 left, so that's going in on the turn no matter what.

I've got to wonder what the CO will do. If he's got TPTK and gets raised, I think he'd throw it away. UTG also has to be worried about two other people showing strength, so I figure he'd fold on the flop, too.

If you call and then UTG calls, then CO is gonna fret what you guys have that you'd call his bet -- "are they slowplaying?" he'll wonder. But I think you extract more money from them by calling (at the risk of a suckout). If you call, then you've got $145 left to a $160-210 pot.

uh, so my question is: if you raise, and you take the pot then and there, is that the goal? Or is it better to try to double/triple up?

[sweetjazz]

Thanks for replying:

My goal was definitely to get my whole stack in against at least one opponent. I figured that my opponents would have a hard time getting away from an A with a decent kicker.

My sense at the time that my opponents might very well call $125 with the same hands they would call $50 with, and that a call would look suspiciously stronger than a moderately sized raise. I now think that I might well have been wrong on both counts.

[sweetjazz]

UTG, CO and the SB all folded to my raise. From post-hand commentary, CO suggested he had a pair of queens and SB had an ace with a weak kicker.

Given my short stack and the drawless board, smooth calling may well have been a much superior option.

I did manage to use the information later in the session to take a few pots with bluffs and semi-bluffs. This was the first time in my limited experience (about five sessions) where there were a large number of players who weren't willing to pay off any size bets with a pair. Man these games are getting real tough. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif