99 Full house-- slowplayed too much??

[Str8Fish]

This is from the Crypto site, so here's a ghetto version:

Hold'em FL ($1/$2)
Hero is SB with 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
Preflop:
UTG raises, all fold to Hero, Hero calls, BB folds. (5 SB)
Flop: 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif4 /images/graemlins/spade.gifA /images/graemlins/heart.gif
Hero Checks, UTG Checks
Turn: A /images/graemlins/club.gif
Hero Checks, UTG Bets, Hero Calls. (4.5BB)
River: 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif
Hero Bets, UTG Raises, Hero 3-bets, UTG 4-bets, Hero Calls
Final Pot: 12BB

-When UTG was raising and re-raising, I knew he had an ace, but I wasn't sure if his kicker had hit. Otherwise, I would have kept reraising. I could have kept reraising in the FL game until I was all in.
-I have no read on him either.
-I thought since I was alone with one opponent, slowplaying was the best strategy to get more into the pot.

Anyone play it differently?

[SoftcoreRevolt]

Bet the damn flop, if he's got JJ-KK he's only going to do the betting for you once, if he has an Ace he'll raise you and then you can get cute and wait until the turn.

[MrWookie47]

How many players at the table. I may 3bet preflop. Bet the flop, bet the turn. Once he checks that flop behind, and given that river action, he has either AA, AK, or A9. I go a couple more bets on the river.

[ QUOTE ]
Bet the damn flop, if he's got JJ-KK he's only going to do the betting for you once, if he has an Ace he'll raise you and then you can get cute and wait until the turn.

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Nice transcription of the hand since you don't have a converter btw.

Steve

[Str8Fish]

Thanks for your advice everyone. The table is 10-handed MrWookie.

I probably could have gotten a hella lot more from him if I had bet the flop. I will do so for now on.

[DCWildcat]

It's just a bet or two in a relatively rare situation. Might as well just bet, and worry about the other decisions.

On this flop vs UTG raise, I have to think good A or high pocket pair. I would lead flop, if raised I smooth-call, then c/r turn, lead river. I wouldn't worry too much about A's full on this board as he would have to have an unlikely A4, A8, or A9. I say this is a great place to get in as many bets as possible. If he has a high pocket pair he may call to river, which is fine too.

[MadMat]

Theres a crypto converter at http://www.darksun.lunarpages.com/poker

As to the hand, bet the flop!! Middle set is too easily outdrawn to slowplay, even on a relatively safe looking board!

grunch

If he's got an ace, he'd call you betting out on the flop. If you check raise him, you may push him out of the hand. So I'd bet out and re-raise if he raises. You're ahead of everything but AA.

Turn
BET BET BET, check-raise, whatever! Get money in that pot! You are most certainly ahead here - the only hands that beat you are AA, A4, and A9, and only one of them is likely for him to raise UTG with, and A9 is highly unlikely for him to have.

River

BET BET BET you are a big favorite in this. If he outdrew you, he outdrew you, oh well. But it's not likely with him raising UTG. Think AK,AQ, AJs, KK, QQ, etc...against AA you're screwed, but that's the game.


[ QUOTE ]
When UTG was raising and re-raising, I knew he had an ace, but I wasn't sure if his kicker had hit. Otherwise, I would have kept reraising. I could have kept reraising in the FL game until I was all in.


[/ QUOTE ]

By not being aggressive in this pot, you gave him the opportunity to hit his kicker, although I doubt he did by the UTG raise.

[Redd]

[ QUOTE ]
Bet the damn flop, if he's got JJ-KK he's only going to do the betting for you once, if he has an Ace he'll raise you and then you can get cute and wait until the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I check-raise this flop like 100% of the time. I expect Villain to continuation bet >95%.

[Greg J]

Stop doing this. Bet the flop. Keep making value bets and hope he wants to go to war.

[Eeegah]

[ QUOTE ]
Middle set is too easily outdrawn to slowplay, even on a relatively safe looking board!

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh this is patently false. We're heads up, and we're winning this just under 19 times out of 20 and we aren't trying to push him out of the pot. Unless he has AA he'll need both the turn and river to hit him to beat us.

Which is not to say we should slowplay. I'm not as firmly in the "never slowplay under any circumstance ever even if your cards are flipped over they'll call" camp most of the forum adheres to, but if he has an A he'll raise us and if he doesn't we won't get much action anyway. Bet out or checkraise the flop depending on your mood; I suspect they're about equal here.

its been said, but just lead the flop. he wont think you have middle set when you lead out.

i'm pretty sure a key criterion for slowplaying is something to the effect of "the pot is small, and the slowplay gives you a chance to win a big pot". that doesn't seem to be the case here. even if he catches up to second best, there's only so much you're getting from him. and b/c it's heads up, there's more to be gained by getting the bets in as soon as possible.

[milesdyson]

i think everyone who suggested betting the flop is wrong

[ QUOTE ]
i think everyone who suggested betting the flop is wrong

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I'm intrigued Miles. What's your line?

I bet/call. Check/raise.

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i think everyone who suggested betting the flop is wrong

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as opposed to?

checkraise the flop and your cover is blown.

if we put him on a range that includes a) KK-TT, along with b) AK-J? i would say any other possibilities are fairly negligent.

so when (vils play is italicised)...

a) the action will most likely go (when we bet):
bet call
bet call
bet call

and we take 2.5BB postflop

if we get fancy:

check bet raise call
bet fold

for 1BB

if we pacify:

check bet call
check bet call
check check

for 1.5BB? maybe even less for the times vil gives up on turn?

b) was a lot harder to do because it is harder to guess at how aggro vil will stay on the turn and river. but bet/call flop then check/raise turn seems to guarantee you at least 1 extra SB... and he will most likely put you on a weak ace so particularly if he has AK he aint slowing down to your checkraise

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i think everyone who suggested betting the flop is wrong

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Come on! Tell us why. Whats the point in telling people they are wrong when you don't say why you think so?

[Str8Fish]

Wow I'm very excited my hand has started so much controversy. From what everyone has said, next time I will bet the flop. I would have been raised most likely here, since he hit his ace. I would have called the raise (10SB so far) thinking of check-raising the turn (at least 9BB). And then betting the river (at least 11BB). The pot here was 12BB, and with him catching a third ace, I'm sure there would have been some re-raising. Gah! So many bets lost because of slowplaying. Thanks everyone... I've truly learned my lesson. Slowplaying can only go so far.

It also sucks that he was trying to slowplay me with his ace... both trying to slowplay the other is awful. /images/graemlins/mad.gif

[Catsailor]

Grunch:
I bet out flop and call a raise. Any hand that raised preflop will call or raise here.
Turn: If he raised flop I bet out again and RR and Cap.
You may be able keep him from hitting his K or Q on river.
Riv: When a blank falls I bet and raise till my hand hurts. Except the rare AA, I don't see him raising preflop with anything that scares me. A read on villian would be needed to expand his preflop standards.
I think you missed many value bets here as I see him going to showdown with any A.
Cat

[milesdyson]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i think everyone who suggested betting the flop is wrong

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Come on! Tell us why. Whats the point in telling people they are wrong when you don't say why you think so?

[/ QUOTE ]
waaaaaaaaah, lol.

the reason i like check raising the flop is that he should bet all of his hands when we check here. so

1. lets get a bet or maybe two if he feels compelled to call our check raise with KQ. if we bet he may just find a fold right away. either that or he peels the flop and folds the turn with his missed backdoor straight draw.

2. lets get him to call down with KK/QQ/JJ/TT after we check raise. if we bet, he just calls down usually. eskimo said it will go check/raise call, bet fold. i strongly disagree. players aren't going to make good laydowns with underpairs.

3. lets get him to overplay a pair of aces. if he has AK, we get to (usually) check raise, call 3-bet, and check raise the turn, as opposed to bet/call, check raise. or maybe he just calls our check raise and allows us to bet/3-bet the turn because he's going to "slowplay" his monster top pair.

4. if he's a really bad overaggressive/tilt prone player, check raising the flop is awesome because he will be encouraged to play back at us with air. seriously, there are tons of players who will call us down only raise the river with nothing, trying to "scare us" into laying down the best hand.

5. lets give our flop check raises some credit.

[Redd]

A flop check-raise - great idea, miles! Why didn't anyone else think of that that everybody didn't ignore?

FWIW I completely agree with miles' post. And I'm check-raising any ace here, as well as a bunch of lower pairs. I don't expect villain to say OMG HE HAS A SET BEACUASE HE CHECKRAISED FOLD FOLD FOLD.

[jrz1972]

(grunch)

3-bet preflop, and bet every street.

[jrz1972]

After reading the thread, I agree with Miles about the c-r on the flop given your preflop play.

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And I'm check-raising any ace here, as well as a bunch of lower pairs.

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This from Redd is the crux of this debate.

This hand depends sooo much more on how you play other hands in the same situation than it does on how you play this hand in isolation.