Going to war w/ a piece of cheese

[Ulysses]

15-30. Pretty loose.

Everyone limps to me on the button. I'm sitting w/ Ad6h. I take a quick glance at the passive blinds and they don't seem to be especially excited. I figure I might flop quads or something, so I call. 9 of us see the flop.

Flop As4d6d

Well, I like the flop. Tricky aggressive UTG bets. More aggressive and also tricky UTG+1 calls. Folded to me. I raise. UTG now 3-bets, which he'd absolutely do w/ either an Ace or a flush draw. UTG+1 now 4-bets, which is the kind of thing he'd do if he wanted to get me out of the way. So, I flat-call (cap is 5 bets). UTG flat calls.

Turn (As4d6d)5h

Somewhat surprisingly, UTG bets. Somewhat more surprisingly, UTG+1 raises. Perhaps most surprisingly, I 3-bet.

What do you think so far?

[Ulysses]

UTG cold-calls the 3-bet. UTG+1 cold-calls.

River (As4d6d5h)Ts

Check. Check. I bet.

What do you think now?

[Inthacup]

Haven't read the results yet. Looks good so far to me. If you get 4-bet, I think it's time to slow down unless you fill on the river.

Edit: River looks good as well.

[hot tub man # 1]

Nicely played, Im sure your hand was good. I think the key to the hand was the action on the flop. I highly doubt either of your oppenents would play a set this fast from UTG or UTG+1 with all of those oppenents behind them. Also, its very uinlikely either has made a straight so you can just about rule that out too considering thier position and thier flop action.

It looks like one of them flopped two pair with A4, and the other one had Ax of dimonds and didnt get there with the flush draw of hit his kicker. Good hand, this an example of how good hand reading skills get you extra bets.

[Ed S.]

I don't like the pre-flop limp, but lets just say you are trying to mix it up. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

I think your flop play is fine and what I would do if I was in this situation. Same thing goes for the turn. Why slow down? I think so far so good.

Ed S.

[bad beetz]

The play of the hand disgusts me. Mostly because I can't three bet the turn with scary ass boards and know I'm good like you can, and it costs me lots of money. It also makes up for some of your sins and transgressions before the flop, like your retched call with A6o after 6 callers.

[Ed S.]

If your afraid of trips or possibly an A,10 you might want to check behind. Although I'm the type of person would just bet it again and make a crying call if I got re-raised and hope it was AK I was up against. /forums/images/icons/grin.gif


Ed S.

[DaBartman]

I'm not overly excited about the pre-flop call, but what the hell, it's fun to be human once in awhile. Bet the river for value and call all raises if need be. The only realistic beats out there are 44 (3 ways) & AT (6ways) and a gazillion ways you have the best hand. Besides, it will just drive the other two around the bend when you expose your hand. Heh, heh.

[haakee]

I don't like your preflop call. Sure you're getting 7:1 or 8:1, but there are not very many flops you're going to like. I like your aggression throughout the rest of the hand.

[DanS]

First of all, A6o is a veritable monster against some of the friggin' cheese YOU limp with. /forums/images/icons/tongue.gif Besides, given the dead money so many opponents will throw in postflop at the typical AJ's 15/30 game, the 75:1 or whatever it is to flop a full house or better justifies the 8:1 preflop call...just kidding, of course.

I think the turn played itself given Ulysses' position and his opponents' actions/tendency. The 3-bet is absolutely mandatory. I didn't pick up that these guys were type to bet/cold-call *inappropriately* with gutshots on the flops, and I just can't see a way Ulysses is behind on the turn. These two don't sound like the type that are stupid or brilliant enough to change their pace up enough to maximize their expectation on *this particular hand.* If one of these guys has a set, sh!t happens.

On the river, I might get a bit of a twinge as I thought "Aww, phuck, could this guy limp with AT, suited or otherwise." That would last a second before I bet it. I think that the key criteria on the river, regardless of where the lead bet comes from, is that no fewer than one and no more than two bets go in on the river.

Dan

P.S. That may have been the most rambling incoherent post since Elysium's last one.

[Tommy Angelo]

Dear bad beetz and haakee and U - "I might flop quads or something" - lysses and whoever else doesn't like the preflop call,

Are you really saying that you can or would or would want to sit in that $15-30 game at AJ's, and be on the button, and have everyone on board for a bet, and muck A-6? I don't mean think about mucking it, or theorize about mucking it. I mean, would you in real life throw that hand away time after time after time in that situation?

Don't presume that I think folding is the wrong play. I have no idea. I just know I don't often have whatever it takes to do it, and I'll be most happy for you if you do.


Tommy

[Lee Jones]

Well, one of 'em can have the nut diamond draw and aces. If he has Ad-Td, well, you lose. But let's give one of 'em top pair and the flush draw. But what's the other guy got?

If it were me, and they'd both called that third bet on the turn, a word would be forming in my mind, kind of like those weird pixelated images that Ticketmaster puts up to prevent bots from driving their ticket-acquisition website. And then I'd start to realize that image said, "set."

At which point I'd probably check the river.

Regards, Lee

[bernie]

preflop...im with the group that would fold this. not sure if it's right, but i hate A6o multiway. i always seem to be on the recieving end of someone playing a crap hand like A8o and outkicking me /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

once you hit it....

the turn id 3 bet as you did. if anything to see how they react. if someone 4 bets, it may be crying call time. if they just call, it opens the betting the river when checked to option.

it's a little tougher since both players are tricky and aggressive, but usually these types of players have a spot in a betting round where they slow down with certain hands. you didnt say they were maniacal.

i wouldnt be looking at them having a str8. but someone could have a small set. especially if they 4 bet you on the turn.

so far i like it though....

b

[haakee]

First of all, A6o is a veritable monster against some of the friggin' cheese YOU limp with.

And some of the hands I 3-bet with. I 3-bet somebody in the Garden City 20-40 yesterday with A5o. It was the best hand (overaggressive raiser had K-something). The next two hands I folded A5o and A6o for a single bet preflop. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

[Dynasty]

UTG+1's play of this hand looks like a flopped set. If an unknown player played like this, I would definitely slow down against him.

[bernie]

i agree. it looks like he may have wanted to wait for the turn, but once the raise came, he abandoned that idea. but the 'tricky' tag can skew that a little.

b

[haakee]

In practice I will fold this every time. I just flash back to all the times I've limped with crap on the button after several callers only to have the big blind jack it up with suited connectors or pocket 6s just because everybody is in.

[Ulysses]

UTG called my bet on the river. He had A5. UTG+1 flashed his hand to a neighbor and commented about the turn costing him money when he picked up an open-ended straight draw to go with his Ace. So, most likely A7 for him (maybe A3).

As for the hand, the obvious question on both the flop and turn is "Does one of these guys have a set?"

With most other players, I would have slowed down, thinking a set was highly likely. But both of these guys are tricky. On the flop, I know UTG will by default put me on a flush draw free card play and re-raise w/ a very wide range of hands. Knowing that, UTG+1 will also 4-bet w/ a very wide range of hands. UTG+1 also knows it would be a real coup for him if he could get me to lay down something like A9 to his 4-bet and UTG is on a draw. So, all of this action could easily be coming from a very wide range of hands.

Two other factors make it unlikely UTG+1 has a set. He would very likely raise w/ any pair after UTG limps here. Also, he would usually call the flop 3-bet and hope I re-raise rather than 4-bet and give me a chance to release a second-best hand early. So, on the flop, I was more concerned about UTG having a set, since of the two he's the one who more often limps w/ pocket pairs.

As soon as UTG bets the turn, I was sure he didn't have a set. I wasn't sure what he had (I thought A4 or A5), but I was pretty sure he didn't have a set. If he did, I'd expect him to either cap the flop or go for a turn check-raise. Just calling the 4-bet and betting out on the turn seemed inconsistent w/ a set.

Which brings us to UTG+1 on the turn. Raise? I have to consider hands like 7d8d (or even 2d3d) at this point and reconsider his having a set. So, there's definitely a chance I'm behind here. But, I know he's aggressive enough to also raise w/ a lot of hands worse than mine. And the raise didn't feel like a big hand raising. So I 3-bet.

With these guys, I know I'm getting re-raised on the turn by any set or straight, so I had an easy bet on the river. One of them might have hit his Ten, but after the turn 3-bet they're going to put me on a set, so I don't think I'd even get raised by these aggressive guys w/ top two.

[Ulysses]

I think the key to the hand was the action on the flop.

Me too. That combined with UTG leading out on the turn is what convinced me neither of them had a set.

[Ulysses]

I didn't pick up that these guys were type to bet/cold-call *inappropriately* with gutshots on the flops
Diamond draw w/ gutshot backup is the hand to worry about. There wouldn't have been that kind of heat w/ just a gutshot.

If one of these guys has a set, sh!t happens.
I explain in the results why I didn't think I was up against a set. Against average or unknown opponents, I'd expect to see a set a lot of the time after that flop action.

[Ulysses]

I mean, would you in real life throw that hand away time after time after time in that situation?

Well, obviously not, Tommy. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

I agree that soft game + Ace + button + 8SB in the pot + unwarranted overconfidence in one's post-flop skills = tough pre-flop laydown, regardless of its "rightness."

[Ulysses]

Note that I had the Ad. So that eliminates TP/FD as a possible holding. Which I guess makes it more likely that one of them has a set.

You'll have to trust me on UTG+1. He loves to raise pocket pairs and he hates to let me escape cheaply, so based on pre-flop and flop play, I really didn't think he had a set.

But UTG. I really thought he might have a set when he bet, 3-bet, and flat-called #4 on the flop. But then he bet out on the turn. That seemed like an un-setlike action to me. Was I thinking reasonably?

But the time that's relevant is the turn. Once I 3-bet and they just call, I'm 100% certain there are no sets out w/ these guys, so no need to worry about a set on the river. For both of them, calling on the turn means exactly "I don't have a set or straight."

As for those pixelated images, is it just me, or are they getting harder and harder to read?

[Ulysses]

UTG+1's play of this hand looks like a flopped set. If an unknown player played like this, I would definitely slow down against him.

Me too. That's why I tried to over-emphasize the trickiness and types of plays they might make in my description.

Nonetheless, I was a little surprised that so many people felt it was such a clear 3-bet on the turn.

[bernie]

against a more str8forward player, id have slowed down much quicker. the tricky have their spots to slow down. i wouldve done it for the reason in which you gave in response to lee's post . you gained the info you needed. though you may also gain a free showdown if you want it.

b

[Ed Miller]

Not intending at all to be cheeky... but this doesn't even occur to me when I'm playing. I'm probably lacking the necessary confidence in my postflop skills. Basically all my "loose" calls are with suited hands. I'd probably call with 96s or J7s here... but I'm guessing you guys would too.

[Ulysses]

I played with Tommy a day or two after he played with you, MK. Among other compliments about your game, he told me he was impressed w/ your pre-flop discipline. If Tommy likes your pre-flop hand selection, you're playing a much more solid game than I am and probably have no need to resort to such shenanigans. Unfortunately, I am not as strong and thus need to make up a few bets 3-betting turns w/ A6o and calling down w/ King-high. /forums/images/icons/cool.gif

[haakee]

I'm in exactly the same boat as you. K9o and A6o don't look any better to me with all those limpers but those suited multi-gappers sure do.

[Rick Nebiolo]

Tommy,

I'm rarely in a game this good but when almost the whole field limps and I have ace-little (little is eight or worse) offsuit on the button I have never ever called not even once. But I'll call with 76 offsuit and these days with Qx suited and I'm comfortable with those calls.

I can't imagine how a hand like A6 isn't usually giving action rather than getting action. But I don't have much imagination so I could be wrong.

Regards.

Rick