$55: A Stop n Go that has been bothering me [Archive]

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Taraz

12-03-2005, 01:08 AM

Just push preflop? Fold maybe? I figured I'd see a flop and push a non-threatening one (I know that's not an official stop n go). Villain's normal raise had been minraises since he got his stack. He wasn't particularly good.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t300 (4 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Hero (t1925)
UTG (t1255)
Button (t3045)
SB (t3775)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
1 fold, Button raises to t600, 1 fold, Hero calls t300.

Flop: (t1350) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero calls [t1625] , Button calls t1325.

Turn: (t2675) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)

River: (t2675) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)

Final Pot: t2675

bluefeet

12-03-2005, 01:36 AM

Yeah, just push it PF - we welcome a call. No reason to give free-wheeling chip-donk a chance to see a flop containing a T,J,Q,K. You have considerable FE, and a hand that should fair well against a 'common' min-raise.

bennies

12-03-2005, 06:52 AM

Yep, push it. But I prefer if he folds his A4s.

12-03-2005, 07:11 AM

I hate to give general guidelines, but in general, you shouldn't stop and go with a stack that big. As a rough measure, if you have fold equity preflop (i.e., your push will give your opponent less than 2:1 to call), a stop and go's probably not best.

Pokerprowannabe

12-03-2005, 07:22 AM

No way I call here. PUSH and take the pot here and now.

12-03-2005, 07:41 AM

Taraz

12-03-2005, 08:07 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I hate to give general guidelines, but in general, you shouldn't stop and go with a stack that big. As a rough measure, if you have fold equity preflop (i.e., your push will give your opponent less than 2:1 to call), a stop and go's probably not best.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wasn't thinking of my play as a stop n go really, it's just easy to type into the subject line so people get a feel for how the hand played out.

I was torn between pushing, calling, and folding because I didn't want the original raiser to call preflop with overcards. The relative stack sizes seemed awkward since the short stack wasn't incredibly short, but still had only 4 BB and had to post next hand.

I was thinking that instead of inviting a race I could see a flop. I would be able to fold a really scary flop and still be ahead of the short stack. In hindsight a push is probably the better play, I have this habit of letting people see flops in situations like these.

Degen

12-03-2005, 08:31 AM

great play...i may have even check raised or check called that flop...you figure to have the best hand here a HUGE portion of the time...

nothing wrong with pushing PF either...you definately aren't folding that

12-03-2005, 08:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I hate to give general guidelines, but in general, you shouldn't stop and go with a stack that big. As a rough measure, if you have fold equity preflop (i.e., your push will give your opponent less than 2:1 to call), a stop and go's probably not best.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wasn't thinking of my play as a stop n go really, it's just easy to type into the subject line so people get a feel for how the hand played out.

I was torn between pushing, calling, and folding because I didn't want the original raiser to call preflop with overcards. The relative stack sizes seemed awkward since the short stack wasn't incredibly short, but still had only 4 BB and had to post next hand.

I was thinking that instead of inviting a race I could see a flop. I would be able to fold a really scary flop and still be ahead of the short stack. In hindsight a push is probably the better play, I have this habit of letting people see flops in situations like these.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that the problem with this line of thought stems from your fold equity preflop here. Pushing preflop is very +EV because you're very likely to have the best hand and you get some VERY valuable FE out of some overcard hands. I strongly doubt that you can get the same EV by calling preflop and playing the flop perfectly.

It's always nice to mess around with some numbers here, though, because you can learn a lot. Put your opponent on a range of hands preflop and decide what range he calls a push with so you can find the EV of pushing. Then, categorize the flops into flops that you push and flops that you check/fold and give your opponent a range of calling hands on the flops that you push. It shouldn't be that hard to get some real numbers here, although ICM makes it slightly more annoying.

If you actually do this, post the results please.

tigerite

12-03-2005, 08:56 AM

Crap. Messed up the ranges as I put Hero in the SB. Hang on..

Ok if he never folds his range has to be 33+,A5o+,A2s+,KQo,KTs+

10%: 33+,A7o+,A4s+,KTs+
25%: 44+,A8o+,A5s+,KJs+

it stays at about this level even if he folds the bottom 50% of his raising range.

tigerite

12-03-2005, 08:57 AM

By the way the reason the ranges are looser than you might expect, is that when he calls, you have to win 58.4% of the time.

12-03-2005, 09:10 AM

[ QUOTE ]

10%: 33+,A7o+,A4s+,KTs+
25%: 44+,A8o+,A5s+,KJs+

[/ QUOTE ]

Could you explain your notation?

12-03-2005, 09:11 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Just push preflop? Fold maybe? I figured I'd see a flop and push a non-threatening one (I know that's not an official stop n go). Villain's normal raise had been minraises since he got his stack. He wasn't particularly good.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t300 (4 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Hero (t1925)
UTG (t1255)
Button (t3045)
SB (t3775)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
1 fold, Button raises to t600, 1 fold, Hero calls t300.

Flop: (t1350) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero calls [t1625] , Button calls t1325.

Turn: (t2675) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)

River: (t2675) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)

Final Pot: t2675

[/ QUOTE ]

NoahSD is right, calling puts too much of your stack in. The problem with seeing the flop before committing is that you will end up making too many mistakes on the flop. Push.

tigerite

12-03-2005, 09:21 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

10%: 33+,A7o+,A4s+,KTs+
25%: 44+,A8o+,A5s+,KJs+

[/ QUOTE ]

Could you explain your notation?

[/ QUOTE ]

First column: % of hands they fold from their raising range (always from the bottom, according to K-S chart values)
Second column: Their raising range

It's not 100% accurate, but it's better than nothing.