Raise JTs UTG? Bet turn?

[TBone]

Here's a hand I played last night at PokerRoom. 2/4 table. Just sat down at the table, so don't know anything about players or looseness/tightness, etc. of table.

I'm UTG, dealt J /forums/images/icons/heart.gif 10 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif Limp. It seems to me many here would raise with this, but I'm not too fond of raising UTG w/ that hand. Seems you limit the hands you're against to hands that likely dominate you. Thoughts, Comments?

UTG+2 raises, 2 MP cold callers, big blind calls, I call. I realize I just said I don't want to play my hand against hands that dominate me, and UTG+2's raise will likely limit the hands playing to dominating hands. But I'm only calling 2 bucks to make the pot 21 bucks--11-1 pot odds to hit my flush, or a straight, or mircle flop. I think this is a good play. Thoughts, comments on calling?

5 to the flop on a raise, $21 in the pot.

Flop is: 5 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif , Q /forums/images/icons/heart.gif , Q /forums/images/icons/club.gif

BB checks, I bet, PFR calls, MP calls, LMP calls, BB calls

Turn is: 7 /forums/images/icons/club.gif [5 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif , Q /forums/images/icons/heart.gif , Q /forums/images/icons/club.gif ]

BB checks, I check, PFR bets, MP calls, LMP folds, BB calls, I fold.

Here's my thoughts. Two queens on the board, there are five callers on the flop, although this seems to be a pretty loose hand. We don't all have Queens, but someone out of the five has to--I want to find out who, and maybe get a freebie here if people are thinking I'll checkraise and the turn card seems relatively non-threatening. Obviously, that didn't happen, no free card, and I think with all of the action, at least one Queen is out there, and a higher flush draw is likely there. Maybe a straight draw out there after turn, but would anything other than possibly 64 stick around after I bet the flop? At least one, possibly two Queens, and likely at least one other flush draw, likely two flush draws w/ 3 other callers. I feel my flush, even if I hit is no good. Thoughts, comments? Am I too much of a wimp?

BTW, river is 6 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif .

BB shows 9 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif , 9 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif
PFR shows Q /forums/images/icons/spade.gif , A /forums/images/icons/club.gif
MP shows 4 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif , 4 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif

Dooh!

T

[thwang99]

You should call the turn I think, the pot is huge! Don't worry about flush over flush. Also it's just one bet to call it's likely you aren't beaten, IMHO.

[Joe Tall]

Easy turn call, you may be playing weak-tight. There are only two cards that better your flush, and you already hold 2 hearts, chances are slim that it's out there.

As for JTs UTG I fold it 80%. I have, to mix it up, raised it here. I'll play it easily after a limper in EP or raise it to open in MP. Sometimes I'll raise it on the button or in LP after in a family pot, to build a huge pot, since it plays so well multiway. I am interested to know how the others play such a hand.

[Ed Miller]

Dude, no. Reading this made me unhappy.

Ok... JTs is fine to limp with... and usually I will limp with it rather than raise, but sometimes I raise to vary my play... especially if the blinds are tight. When it is one bet back to you, you call. Don't waste brain cycles on this... you limp, raised behind you, one bet back to you, you call. It's that simple.

Your turn fold is freaking horrible. Like quite bad. Your logic is really bad too... mostly in that you assigned logical thinking to illogical beings.

Here's the deal on the turn. When you get called in so many spots on the flop, someone probably has a Queen. But the other guys could have anything.. a 5, an overcard, a pocket pair... whatever. It's only one bet and look how big the freakin pot is! So I like the turn check because you are probably going to get raised if you bet.

When the preflop raiser flat calls the flop and then bets the turn, he has a Q... AQ or KQ. Why? Because with a pocket pair, he will usually raise the flop... and with AK, he won't bet the turn. He schlowplayed because he flopped trips. What else is he supposed to do? He flopped trips... he has basically a moral imperative to schlowplay the flop. So that hand is nailed down and you are drawing live like a butterfly against that hand.

Now, here's the key. Nobody raises the bet. That means 90% that nobody has a boat here. In fact, the bettor is the only one with a Q, because the case Q would raise. So, the other people have trash. You almost certainly aren't drawing dead to a boat.

Now you worry about a bigger flush draw. Why? What about the way people have played the hand makes you think that someone has a bigger flush draw? It's pretty unlikely since you have the 3rd nut draw. Furthermore, there are two flush draws on board, not one. Who's to say that these people who "must" have flush draws don't all have clubs?

As you gain more poker experience, you will learn that people don't need any kind of hand to call bets. They will call with the silliest, most ridiculous hands you could imagine. In fact, with many players, the fact that they have called means little to nothing about the quality of their hands... except that it isn't of appropriate quality to raise with. Do not fall into the trap of projecting your own calling standards onto other players. In fact, in general, don't draw parallels between how you would have played a hand and how an opponent played a hand and draw a conclusion about the composition of his hand based on that. The fact that your opponents play markedly different from you is what makes poker lucrative. If they all played like you, there would be no loose money, now would there?

You are getting 10.5-1 on your call. 10.5-1! You can be drawing dead half the time here and still profit from calling. The fold cost you about 1 BB in expectation, in my estimation... in other words... big mistake.

Here's a rule for you that almost always holds. Don't consider folding a flush draw in limit holdem unless the board is double paired or contains trips. Certainly never for one bet unless the board is doubled paired or contains trips.

[KefAAAA]

Your call was well played preflop. Without having the flop yet, and a not-too-strong hand such as JTh, you shouldn't raise.

Your choice to fold however, I disagree with. You shouldn't be very worried about someone else having the straight draw higher than yours. You have the Jh and there are two queens on the board. Another player would either need AKh, AXh, or KXh or all of that in Clubs to beat you. Very slim possibility of that happening. I would've kept going especially since there was only one bet. Chances are the best hand would be a flush draw, which you have pretty much locked down or three Queens.

Stay in next time, play with Lady Luck on the River. Once in a while you'll be pleasantly surprised.

[bernie]

id limp with this hand here. unless the table has a history of lots of preflop aggression.

cant believe you folded the turn though. way too paranoid about a higher flush draw. id only be worried if i made my flush and the board paired. but im seeing the river for my flush. no way im folding here.

who cares about the str8 draw. it's very unlikely, though it happens that some chase. so what? seems youre too fearful of what may be out there instead of what is likely out there. there could more likely be a smaller flush draw than a larger one.

b

[bernie]

"He schlowplayed because he flopped trips. What else is he supposed to do? He flopped trips... he has basically a moral imperative to schlowplay the flop."

he could raise the flop. for the same reasons id raise the flop. not many will put him on it and theyll call. you could also get in a ram and jam with the draw that is betting into him. many still wont necesarily put him on trips. why? because most of them would wait til the turn.

b

[Ed Miller]

I was kidding when I said that it was a moral imperative to slowplay.

[Robk]

I'm UTG, dealt J 10 Limp. It seems to me many here would raise with this, but I'm not too fond of raising UTG w/ that hand. Seems you limit the hands you're against to hands that likely dominate you. Thoughts, Comments?

The argument for raising is that by making the pot large preflop you tie weak players in postflop for when you get a favorable flop. The idea is that you get them to draw practically dead to things like one overcard or bottom pair when you have a straight or flush. And you add deception to your draw/made hand. But you need pretty special game conditions for this to be right.

1. Many players who will play the same hands for two bets that they will for one bet (preflop).
2. Players who will make loose calls postflop because the pot is big (ie if the players would call with anything no matter what the size of the pot, that's a reason to limp).
3. Few aggressive players in the game so that there is little chance of a reraise preflop.

I generally don't think it's worth it. The play is discussed as one of he expert plays in ITPM but I don't think he says much more about than I just did.

[J.R.]

I can't see raising with JTs without position, since the raise may also let you get a free card on the flop or turn. Drawing hands suck out of position.

What's ITPM?

[Robk]

ITPM is Inside the Poker Mind by John Feeney. In large multiway pots position isn't quite as important to the draw, I don't think.

[J.R.]

I guess the better way to think of it is that JTs is a volume hand that likes oppponents and implied odds, and raising from EP cuts down on both of these. I suspect Feeney talks about doing this on the button after limpers, as is discussed in HPFAP with big suited cards or middle pairs and the conditions you list, but I could be wrong. Is the Feeney book pretty good?

[TBone]

Dude, no. Reading this made me unhappy.

I'm sorry man! Didn't mean to make you unhappy. If it's any consolation I played a 34s much more aggressively (raised flop, bet, bet) yesterday and took a hefty pot--does this make you happier? /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

I hear you all on the horrible fold on the turn. I look at all the hands I've played and rarely ever layed down a flush draw until it didn't hit on the river.

I guess that's what us inexperienced people do sometimes--make stupid mistakes, and why you experienced people love to play with us. /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

Thanks again for grilling me, and explaining your grilling.

T

[bernie]

as he stated, the conditions have to be right to do it. it's a nice little move. especially when it works.

though it's not often you get to do it. also, once in awhile it's good to raise with something like this. not as routine though. kind of like the T9s hand in HPFAP. same principle.

b

[bernie]

the feeney book kicks ass.

i consider it HPFAP part 2. though some disagree.

the majority on here love it.

b