Following your gut

[suited_ace]

I know I'll get flamed for the call, and in hindsight I don't like it myself. BB is looooooooose, and his timing to do the C/R just screamed "I HAVE A FLUSH DRAW" to me.

I didn't think enough before pressing the middle button, I just went "yer on a flush draw, I call". This hand sucks, but it made me think about some things...


Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (7 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

UTG (t415)
MP1 (t1145)
MP2 (t780)
CO (t2030)
Hero (t810)
SB (t795)
BB (t2025)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t150</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls t100.

Flop: (t325) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t250</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to t700</font>, Hero calls t410 (All-In).

I have a few questions for you guys...

1. Do you ever go with a "read" when you're playing?
2. Assuming my read was correct and he only had a flush draw, is the call correct?

[tigerite]

Why would you call even if he is on a 'flush draw', as he has at least 12 outs to beat you, and possibly 15?

Plus it could be a flush draw with a 5, as well. I don't get why you did this.

[Freudian]

I very rarely make calls like this. It has to be someone that pushed me out of enough pots that he has to do it with air a fair share of the times. I'd guess I make it once every 200 SnGs or even more seldom. And I never do it before at least level 4-5.

I don't know how you can specifically put him on a flushdraw, 99-JJ, A5 etc are all possibilites.

[suited_ace]

[ QUOTE ]
Why would you call even if he is on a 'flush draw', as he has at least 12 outs to beat you, and possibly 15?

[/ QUOTE ]

Just to make it clear: I *know* it was a stupid play.

*Assuming* he has 15 outs, he's a slight favorite to win the hand (55/45, right?). The pot odds are just right for a call if we assume he has only a flush draw + 2 live cards. I know my call is wrong, I'm just wondering about the pot odds part of it...

[pineapple888]

[ QUOTE ]
Why would you call even if he is on a 'flush draw', as he has at least 12 outs to beat you, and possibly 15?

Plus it could be a flush draw with a 5, as well. I don't get why you did this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ummm... cause he's calling 410 to win 1685?

Super-easy call for me. I don't even need a read to take this line. Take a shot on the flop, sigh when villain pushes, and just call.

[suited_ace]

[ QUOTE ]
Ummm... cause he's calling 410 to win 1685?

[/ QUOTE ]

As I said, the pot odds are just right if my read is correct, but I'm wondering if the call is correct this being a SnG and not a ring game.

[pineapple888]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ummm... cause he's calling 410 to win 1685?

[/ QUOTE ]

As I said, the pot odds are just right if my read is correct, but I'm wondering if the call is correct this being a SnG and not a ring game.

[/ QUOTE ]

The ICM correction is minor at this point. Still a call to me.

[Shillx]

You are getting 3:1 to call the all-in. It has more to do with generous pot odds then gut instinct I would think. Even if he flipped up TT, you don't really mind calling here. Add in the times that he is either on a draw or just on a bad bluff and you figure to have at least 30% equity here. I would guess something between 30-35%.

[pineapple888]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why would you call even if he is on a 'flush draw', as he has at least 12 outs to beat you, and possibly 15?

Plus it could be a flush draw with a 5, as well. I don't get why you did this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ummm... cause he's calling 410 to win 1685?

Super-easy call for me. I don't even need a read to take this line. Take a shot on the flop, sigh when villain pushes, and just call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Also, just to clarify, when I say "super-easy" I don't mean hugely +EV. I just mean I've already thought through this sort of situation previously, and given the pot odds plus the vig when he's making a move, I have to call.

[lastchance]

You need to push or check initially on the flop.

[suited_ace]

[ QUOTE ]
You need to push or check initially on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like an interesting line... Care to elaborate a little bit more?

[tewall]

What I would be thinking is you're still in pretty good shape, and have a good chance of getting your money in when you have a better edge than what you'd be getting here.

[pergesu]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You need to push or check initially on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like an interesting line... Care to elaborate a little bit more?

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't speak for lastchance, but here's my take on it.

Pushing forces your opponent to make the decision, and doesn't allow him to make a c/r that puts you in an uncomfortable position. You put max pressure on him and he can't outplay you.

If you check, I think you have to push the turn as long as he doesn't bet into you. It's the same reasoning as above, the difference being that I think you have a higher success rate of getting him to fold if he does in fact have a flush draw.

So many players are willing to call their stack off on a flush draw with two cards to come, but way less willing to do so with one card to come. You definitely don't want to be called if you shove the flop. By checking, you increase your chances of pushing him off his hand if he doesn't turn a pair. Yeah you're giving him a free card to catch one of his outs...but if he was going to call his stack on the flop anyway, does it hurt you at all? Nope, and in fact it's a lot better not to risk your stack. I don't think you have to worry about getting called on the turn, because as I said most players don't call huge bets on flush draws with only one card to come, and he would almost certainly bet a pair + a flush draw.

If it's the A/images/graemlins/club.gif instead of the 3/images/graemlins/club.gif on the flop, I'd just shove the flop and hope for a call. But since you're not very far ahead of him (if at all) then you want to minimize your risk and maximize your chances of pushing him off his weak hand.

[pergesu]

I'm pretty pissed that nobody has responded to this.

[rbear]

I agree completely.

Sure that's not what you're looking for, but I agree w/ analysis, and need to be putting opponents in spots I hate to be in.

[Newt_Buggs]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You need to push or check initially on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like an interesting line... Care to elaborate a little bit more?

[/ QUOTE ]
I think that last chance is thinking that if you c-bet here like you did then you have to make a marginal call if he pushes, like the villain did. Pushing or checking prevents you from getting trapped in this type of spot. I could write an entire page on this hand, and why getting trapped into making this marginal call isn't necessarily bad, but i'm going to bed instead.

[Kristian]

I think the possible flush draw is only a side note to this hand, since villain will only be holding 2 clubs about 5% of the time. Is your line the same if the flop is rainbow? Does it favor check or push more?

I am not saying your line is wrong, but I have a couple of issues with it:
First of all, I have a hard time giving a free card by checking here. Next, the push is just begging to be called by almost any hand, and some of those might fold to a more 'traditional' bet. Last, it's not like hero can't use the 410 he has left if he choses to fold to the check-raise, that's almost the value of half a tournament.

Hope to hear more thoughts and elaborations.