I suck hard at blind vs. blind battles

[private joker]

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">7 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls.

Flop: (4 SB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls.

Turn: (3 BB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, Hero calls.

River: (7 BB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks... (intending to call a bet)

Every street debatable I guess.

EDIT: No reads yet on this guy. Should I lead the river?

Preflop: the raise is okay. I think calling is okay too depending on the read (some might think that a sin, but I would disagree), but since he is new then I would test him since he's on your left. So I like the pfr.

I like the turn. Being more aggressive here does not gain you enough when you are ahead compared to when you are behind. River could be check call or bet fold. I like check call since I'm thinking a donk might initiate a fold if you have him beat.

[gaming_mouse]

I don't see anything wrong here. I think leading the river would be a clear mistake.

[cassady]

With top pair and a reasonable kicker, I'd 3bet the turn. Note that a lot of hands that would be beating you at this point would have 3-bet preflop. If BB is raising some ragedy-ass 2 pair, thems the breaks.

[Nick C]

These are very hard for me because (a) different players approach blind vs. blind and blind-steal situations in highly different ways, (b) those different approaches don't always correlate so well with the way the individual players in question play in general, and (c) I'm not very good in blind vs. blind situations in the first place.

All right, then. Preflop, I would raise, fold, or complete, depending on my mood. (If I were BB facing your raise, given my recent approach to defending versus SB open-raises we'd be going to a flop unless my hand was absolute garbage along the lines of 52o. But BB isn't me.)

Flop: I'm auto-betting too. I would also usually do so if I just completed preflop (unless BB had then raised preflop).

Turn: This is where I'd be at a loss. Top pair is a really good hand in this situation. But does BB know that? How much is he adjusting? Who knows. I kind of want to 3-bet, but maybe that's reckless against a 5/10 unknown.

River: Man, I at least want to donk here. But BB is probably betting anyway, unless he's letting the ace scare him (which he might, given my preflop raise). I don't know. I guess I'd probably bet-call or check-call.

[belloc]

Preflop: I like to have a stronger hand raising an unknown from the SB, but that's me.

Flop is fine, Turn I'd probably checkraise. This keeps opponents from autobetting me when I check turns with things like whiffed overcards.

River: you have to think you're beat, but you need to find out what this guy is capable of raising that turn with.

EDIT: On the turn checkraise, I guess I'd be more hesitant to do this with the baby straight cards on the flop. With a more drawless board, I think it's the right play, but here you'd hate to give a free card to a 4.

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]

River: Man, I at least want to donk here. But BB is probably betting anyway, unless he's letting the ace scare him (which he might, given my preflop raise). I don't know. I guess I'd probably bet-call or check-call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nick,

I don't see how bet call can even be a consideration here. Please explain. You really think he's bluff raising that often? I think this is c/c and it's not close. Induced bluff &gt;&gt;&gt; value bet here.

[bobbyi]

The wait you played it is good.

[CanKid]

I'm check raising this turn, 2 main reasons;
1) almost everyone bets this turn when checked to, so you gain value if he decides to call with his junk, and gain that extra bet he likely would have folded if you fired a 2nd barrel
2) if he remembers for next time, you may get that A2o to showdown cheaper than you normally would UI.

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
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River: Man, I at least want to donk here. But BB is probably betting anyway, unless he's letting the ace scare him (which he might, given my preflop raise). I don't know. I guess I'd probably bet-call or check-call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nick,

I don't see how bet call can even be a consideration here. Please explain. You really think he's bluff raising that often? I think this is c/c and it's not close. Induced bluff &gt;&gt;&gt; value bet here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't really have an explanation, except that I find it almost impossible to read the hand of an unknown in a blind-vs.-blind situation.

The reason I want to bet is that I had top pair on the turn versus a starting hand that in theory didn't have to be very strong at all.

But, yeah, I guess if we get raised we're probably beat. Check-calling does seem better than bet-calling.

Frequently, I feel like what I'm doing in blind-steal situations at the table is playing loose and aggressive until I get played back at, when I become cautious. I don't know how to interpret my opponents' bets and raises in these spots, so often what I find myself doing is thinking, "Look, I've got a pair, and I'm not taking a line that lets you push me off of it; I'm showing down." Sometimes I miss bets this way, and sometimes I call down when I probably shouldn't.

[jason_t]

Standard.

[cassady]

[ QUOTE ]
Standard.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not raise the turn?

[Jake (The Snake)]

We're simply behind villain's range.

Also,
When we are behind obviously 3-betting is worse.
When we are ahead we usually get the same amount of bets in anyway by letting villain bet the river.

[SackUp]

preflop, flop, and turn are all standard for me.

I might 3bet the turn depending on the player.

The river is ineresting to me. A c/c would be my standard line, but I think getting sexy could be fun too. I would probably not recommend the sexy often but we could get a better jack to fold or a worse pair to call.

[cassady]

[ QUOTE ]
We're simply behind villain's range.

Also,
When we are behind obviously 3-betting is worse.
When we are ahead we usually get the same amount of bets in anyway by letting villain bet the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure if we are behind the villian's range. For most players, any pocket pair above jacks would be 3-bet reflop. So would AJ, and possibly a J with any broadway. I think our hand is good a fair amount of the time.

While I agree that a lot of the time letting an opponent bet the river will get us the same amount of money, I can quite easily see an aggressive opponent semi-bluff raising an A-high or small to medium pair on the turn. This is the kind of opponent we may knock out with a 3-bet.

In short, I think hand protection is still somewhat of a concern on the turn.

[jason_t]

If you 3-bet the pot will be 8 BB. If Hero's hand is good, what hands are you trying to protect from?

[cassady]

[ QUOTE ]
If you 3-bet the pot will be 8 BB. If Hero's hand is good, what hands are you trying to protect from?

[/ QUOTE ]

Any hand with overcards to a J. There's also the chance that a mid-pair will improve....

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you 3-bet the pot will be 8 BB. If Hero's hand is good, what hands are you trying to protect from?

[/ QUOTE ]

Any hand with overcards to a J. There's also the chance that a mid-pair will improve....

[/ QUOTE ]

How often does villain have overcards to a J after taking this line?

[ncboiler]

Re-raise the turn. Call the river although I'm not sure how it could have helped villian meaning it may be a bet/fold situation.

[cassady]

[ QUOTE ]
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[ QUOTE ]
If you 3-bet the pot will be 8 BB. If Hero's hand is good, what hands are you trying to protect from?

[/ QUOTE ]

Any hand with overcards to a J. There's also the chance that a mid-pair will improve....

[/ QUOTE ]

How often does villain have overcards to a J after taking this line?

[/ QUOTE ]

I haven't played more than 100 hands of 5/10, my online experience is strictly 2/4 and 3/6, but I've seen Ace high raise the turn on board like this on a blind battle. I guess this is highly read dependent and we're without a read here.

Perhaps a corrosponding question is this: what hand does villian have that we are behind to here? Do you think it's a jack with a better kicker? Very often you'd see a 3-bet preflop with AJ or even JK.

With that flop you can't go for the check-raise on the turn imho. You can't give away free suckouts.

[cassady]

you're OOP here. The issue isn't going for a check raise, it's betting out with top pair, getting raised, then ther'es the choice between either calling or 3-betting.

[Clarkmeister]

I'm with Cassady on this one. I think 3-betting the turn is the right play here against most opponents.

[Harv72b]

I do not like a turn 3-bet at all. Consider the possible holdings that a halfway normal player would take this line with, as the big blind:

1) flopped monster goes for the delayed raise. It's entirely possible that villain could call preflop with 64, 33, or even 55 here. Besides possible 2-pair hands, of course. In this case, Hero is likely playing into a turn cap, which gets really tricky in this situation.

2) the jack helped him. Hero's 8 kicker ain't that hot, even in a blind battle, considering the unknown status of the villain. Most people aren't going to bother calling the flop bet with jack high unless they have two overcards or some kind of draw to go with it; if he is holding two overcards to the flop and the jack hit him, then the best Hero can hope for is a chop with another J8. If he called the flop bet with a hand like J6 or J4 and his gutshot draw, then you might be giving up a bet by just calling vs. 3-betting. But since there are more jack combinations which are comfortably ahead of Hero than behind, I don't see the value in a 3-bet if this is the case.

3) A total bluff with air. He then probably folds to a 3-bet, when he would often have bet again on the river if Hero just calls the raise and checks the river. A small percentage of the time he catches a single overcard to beat Hero's top pair, a few more times he gives up and checks through the river, but I have to think that Hero makes more money by inducing the river bluff here. We are, of course, assuming that an unknown is even capable of a bluff raise on the turn.

4) delayed turn raise on a semibluff or lower than top pair, aimed at inducing a fold from Hero. Again, even in a 5/10 blind battle, I wouldn't assume that an unknown is going to try this often enough to consider it.

Frankly, I think the turn action is pretty obvious. It's the question of whether to check/call or bet/fold the river that is closer, IMO, though I lean towards check/call for the informational value that I gain from showdown, as well as the possibility that MHIG.

[goofball]

I'm not wild about the PF raise, but I also feel this position is my single weakest spot in limit holdem so meh.

Give that you raised PF you should bet the flop, the A high you might have is good after that flop. You should reraise the turn too, in blind battles people have a 5 or a 7 here tons and tons of times. He could also have a worse J (remember no PF 3bet). Had you 3bet the turn I would have just kept firing on the river. I'm still debating about folding to a raise but I think checking gives up massive amounts of value to a 7 or a 5.

The way you played it I think donking the river is bad. You'll fold many worse hands and zero better ones. Checkcall is fine.

[Clarkmeister]

There's a lot more that can be going on other than "we are toast or the guy has air". And a lot of those hands, we don't mind if they fold for one more bet. Far too often you call the turn raise, the river goes check, check, and they show down their middle pair or whatever.

[Harv72b]

[ QUOTE ]
There's a lot more that can be going on other than "we are toast or the guy has air". And a lot of those hands, we don't mind if they fold for one more bet. Far too often you call the turn raise, the river goes check, check, and they show down their middle pair or whatever.

[/ QUOTE ]

True, but the information we gain on the currently unknown player to our immediate left, as well as the metagame implications of taking this line with top pair, can make up for a missed bet or two on this particular hand over the course of the table session. Assuming of course that he calls a turn 3-bet and/or river bet with less than top pair himself.

[Jake (The Snake)]

[ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure if we are behind the villian's range. For most players, any pocket pair above jacks would be 3-bet reflop. So would AJ, and possibly a J with any broadway. I think our hand is good a fair amount of the time.

While I agree that a lot of the time letting an opponent bet the river will get us the same amount of money, I can quite easily see an aggressive opponent semi-bluff raising an A-high or small to medium pair on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I think I was wrong on this one. There are many Ax hands that have gutshots and could be semibluffing here, or middle pairs looking to take a free showdown.

We probably can't "protect our hand" since that implies we would give villain incorrect odds to call. However we certainly can raise for value.

Thinking about it again, my guess would be we are ahead maybe 60%ish percent of the time... so I wouldn't mind reraising the turn.

What are we doing to a cap?

[hobbsmann]

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I'm not sure if we are behind the villian's range. For most players, any pocket pair above jacks would be 3-bet reflop. So would AJ, and possibly a J with any broadway. I think our hand is good a fair amount of the time.

While I agree that a lot of the time letting an opponent bet the river will get us the same amount of money, I can quite easily see an aggressive opponent semi-bluff raising an A-high or small to medium pair on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I think I was wrong on this one. There are many Ax hands that have gutshots and could be semibluffing here, or middle pairs looking to take a free showdown.

We probably can't "protect our hand" since that implies we would give villain incorrect odds to call. However we certainly can raise for value.

Thinking about it again, my guess would be we are ahead maybe 60%ish percent of the time... so I wouldn't mind reraising the turn.

What are we doing to a cap?

[/ QUOTE ]
call and check/fold the river UI as we likely have odds to draw to a two hand against the villain's capping range.

[tewall]

I think you're getting 12 to 1 odds to call in this situation. I don't see how you can fold that, unless you knew the player. Wrongly folding here would be a huge mistake. What if villain is just pushing a draw really hard?

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't see anything wrong here. I think leading the river would be a clear mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]