Limp-Reaise followed by Limp-cap! [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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MadMat

12-02-2005, 07:00 PM

A nice loose-passive table suddenly went mad! bit lost on the flop here, pretty sure theres at least one big PP out there, so overcard outs are probably no good, so I give myself 3 outs for the backdoor posibilities

BB is loose, bordeline maniac (80/20)
MP1 is new to table, so unknown

Cryptologic 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (9 handed) link (http://www.darksun.lunarpages.com/poker/)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, 1 folds, UTG+2 checks, MP1 calls, 1 folds, MP3 calls, CO checks, Hero raises, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 3-bets, MP3 calls, CO calls, Hero calls, BB caps, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (28.00 SB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif (7 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (17.50 BB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (7 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+2 folds, MP1 checks, MP3 checks, CO checks.

River: (17.50 BB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif (6 players)
Hero bets, BB folds, UTG calls, MP1 raises, MP3 folds, CO 3-bets, Hero caps, UTG folds, MP1 calls, CO calls.

Final Pot: 30.50 BB.

Coolidge

12-02-2005, 07:03 PM

Don't we have enough equity to bet the turn here?

12-02-2005, 07:03 PM

does anyone bet this flop, figuring BB will raise and protect our overcards?

You should toss in some value bets on this turn--you have lots of outs to a straight or flush here, and will win a lot.

MrWookie47

12-02-2005, 07:04 PM

nh.

MadMat

12-02-2005, 07:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Don't we have enough equity to bet the turn here?

[/ QUOTE ]

I was expecting BB to bet again for me and didn't want to face them all with 2 cold.

Mat

Shillx

12-02-2005, 07:08 PM

Go ahead and cap it up preflop.

Coolidge

12-02-2005, 07:10 PM

ok, but wouldn't knocking out some players if he does raise you be ok too?

Aaron W.

12-02-2005, 07:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
does anyone bet this flop, figuring BB will raise and protect our overcards?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't. Even if villain raises, the likelihood of BB folding out anyone holding a hand that bothers us (AK/AQ) is incredibly remote. There's no way any one pair hands are folding in this gigantic pot.

[ QUOTE ]
You should toss in some value bets on this turn--you have lots of outs to a straight or flush here, and will win a lot.

[/ QUOTE ]

With the aggressor on the flop acting immediately after hero, checking is better. If villain bets and a bunch of people call, then a check-raise would do well. If hero bets and villain raises, then hero is sad because everyone gets shut out of the pot.

MrWookie47

12-02-2005, 07:16 PM

Agreed. Our overcards are as clean as they're going to be.

bozlax

12-02-2005, 07:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If hero bets and villain raises, then hero is sad because everyone gets shut out of the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you really think that everybody bails out getting 10:1 or better?

bozlax

12-02-2005, 07:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Agreed. Our overcards are as clean as they're going to be.

[/ QUOTE ]

On the turn? Who's cleaning up overcards? You're value-betting a nut OESD/2nd nut (possible nut) FD into 6 opponents. 15 outs, you only need 2 to call BB's possible raise.

AlmightyJay

12-02-2005, 07:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
A nice loose-passive table suddenly went mad! bit lost on the flop here, pretty sure theres at least one big PP out there, so overcard outs are probably no good, so I give myself 3 outs for the backdoor posibilities

BB is loose, bordeline maniac (80/20)
MP1 is new to table, so unknown

Cryptologic 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (9 handed) link (http://www.darksun.lunarpages.com/poker/)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, 1 folds, UTG+2 checks, MP1 calls, 1 folds, MP3 calls, CO checks, Hero raises, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 3-bets, MP3 calls, CO calls, Hero calls, BB caps, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (28.00 SB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif (7 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (17.50 BB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (7 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+2 folds, MP1 checks, MP3 checks, CO checks.

River: (17.50 BB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif (6 players)
Hero bets, BB folds, UTG calls, MP1 raises, MP3 folds, CO 3-bets, Hero caps, UTG folds, MP1 calls, CO calls.

Final Pot: 30.50 BB.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, BB is a maniac, and he didn't limp/cap, he called a raise and then capped. That from an 80/20 maniac to me means he has two cards.

I don't know if I'm raising KQs against five limpers when I'm out of position. Getting 35:1 and closing the action on the flop, you can call profitably even with a single backdoor draw, so this is fine. I like checking the turn with hopes of raising BB, since you have around 20-25% equity and would probably have a lot of opponents. But having it check around isn't a bad result either. Nice river. Postflop looks good to me, and better players than me probably raise preflop as well.

Edit: I'm a genius and totally missed that you also picked up a flush draw on the turn. Man, that was the absolute perfect turn card! Your equity is actually in the 35-40% range (right?), making a bet totally fine, but I like the c/r attempt much more. Too bad the maniac wussed out.

Aaron W.

12-02-2005, 08:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If hero bets and villain raises, then hero is sad because everyone gets shut out of the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you really think that everybody bails out getting 10:1 or better?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not necessarily everyone, but enough. Hero has 9 diamonds plus 6 non-repeated OESD outs. I don't trust his K/Q outs in this spot. Hero needs at least 3 callers to make the equity edge. Will there be two cold-callers if villain decides to raise us? It will be close.

That the turn got checked through with seven players is pretty amazing (as is UTG+2's fold).

12-02-2005, 08:36 PM

I think this hand was played well.
I also think going for the checkraise on the turn is the superior play.

I have one question.

Does anybody go for a checkraise on the river?
This was my first thought when I saw the Ace.

bozlax

12-02-2005, 10:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Will there be two cold-callers if villain decides to raise us? It will be close.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that it's close. I think that any hand that's going to call one from BB would call two (either you think he's for real and you fold, or you think he's full of sh1t and you call), and the most -EV thing that could happen, no matter how unlikely, is a turn check-through.

bozlax

12-02-2005, 10:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Does anybody go for a checkraise on the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

After you failed to get any money in on the turn? No effing way. Somebody just made aces up, maybe you'll get lucky and get raised. What's better for you, though, is that somebody that just matched up their ace-no-kicker will now call a bet from you, but would never, ever bet out for you.

12-02-2005, 10:48 PM

The limp reraise/cap is an interesting phenomenon. I may give MP credit for a big pair depending on a read, but i think BB is just out there having a good time.

I bet this turn with so many players and such a big pot. If there is no overpair, which is more often than not, your K and/or Q outs could be live -- id give myself maybe 1.5 or 2 outs for them. You have alot of equity and with players that limp/reraise/ limp/cap, you should not worry about the field folding for 2 cold. Bet it, I say.

Edit: Against a maniac like the BB, I actually usually go for a checkraise here like you did. But I do think it's close. My mistake! NH

SoftcoreRevolt

12-02-2005, 11:09 PM

Well played. You can likely cap preflop with how many people are in this hand, but just calling here isn't a terrible sign, its a confusing play, especially with KQs.

Flop is a definate call, and the turn it a check. There is no need to bet out on the turn. If we want to exploit an equity edge, let's go for the check raise of BB.

12-03-2005, 05:58 AM

I don't see how I can check raise on the river. I don't see it going all the way around unchecked but i think the c/r tells everyone exactly what your hand is and that you aren't going to get anymore bets..

The only other real hand that might be able to c/r this river is AA and he obviously doesn't have that with not capping preflop.

BTW did you out run AA?

12-03-2005, 06:47 AM

I'm wondering how many people just got the rush of blood and bet or how many people actually put some thought into it and made the decision that betting was better than a c/r.

All I was saying is..as soon as I saw that Ace fall on the river, I knew three things.

1. I have the stone cold nuts.
2. There is no way this river gets checked through.

And before we all look at the river action and use our wonderful powers of result orientated thinking...the third thing I've got going through my head when I hit that river (other than $ signs) is that the so called "maniac" is on my immediate left and the most likely card in the entire deck to hit his preflop capping hand has just landed. Most with even mediocre hands are more likely to call one bet from maniac than two after maniac raises my donk.
Failing his bet, I've still got three other players AND a preflop 3bettor to act [refer to point 2].

Betting out is more than likely the best option here but I can't make up my mind. I'm hoping someone else will.

KeysrSoze

12-03-2005, 06:51 AM

I cap it preflop. and on the turn we have hella-equity, jam away then, too.

MadMat

12-03-2005, 07:01 AM

[ QUOTE ]

BTW did you out run AA?

[/ QUOTE ]

No idea what MP1 had, Crypto doesn't allow you to see the mucked hands. I split the pot with CO who called all the way to the river with KQo

Mat

MadMat

12-03-2005, 07:07 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm wondering how many people just got the rush of blood and bet or how many people actually put some thought into it and made the decision that betting was better than a c/r.

All I was saying is..as soon as I saw that Ace fall on the river, I knew three things.

1. I have the stone cold nuts.
2. There is no way this river gets checked through.

And before we all look at the river action and use our wonderful powers of result orientated thinking...the third thing I've got going through my head when I hit that river (other than $ signs) is that the so called "maniac" is on my immediate left and the most likely card in the entire deck to hit his preflop capping hand has just landed. Most with even mediocre hands are more likely to call one bet from maniac than two after maniac raises my donk.
Failing his bet, I've still got three other players AND a preflop 3bettor to act [refer to point 2].

Betting out is more than likely the best option here but I can't make up my mind. I'm hoping someone else will.

[/ QUOTE ]

My thinking while actually playing the hand was that after seeing the C/R attempt fail and the turn check through, there was no way I was allowing MP1 who I had put on AA get a free showdown with his set of aces. I bet out as there were plenty of hands that just had to call one more bet in a huge pot that would otherwise be just as happy to let it check through again.

Mat

12-03-2005, 07:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]
free showdown with his set of aces.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know what to say.

AussieBattler

12-03-2005, 07:36 AM

Grunch

seems fine on all streets for me given you are out of position and things seemed to have worked out for you with the nuts on the river.

BB seems to be a "cap it" gambler so you dont have to worry about him after he checks the turn...if MP1 flips over AA youll quitely chuckle when he complains of a bad beat.

nh

12-03-2005, 12:48 PM

kwaz, I think a checkraise usually scares people. If we checkraise, people are bound to call the raise out of fear. We are telling them we're crushing them. It's kind of like overcalls. If we bet out, we are expecting them to at least call, and if it's raised, we can reraise. You're probably right--it's not likely to get checked through, but what if some other donk in MP decides to checkraise too? Then Mr. LastToAct gets his free showdown. This would bite the biggest balls.