I don't want to be average

[scotty34]

I'll give my situation just to outline a scenario for this thread, but this doesn't apply to me specifically, and I think everyone can benefit from this discussion.

I've noticed since beginning my poker career, my game has gone through a couple different stages. I began reading 2+2 before I actually started playing limit hold'em online, so when I started playing I had some idea of what I was doing. I wasn't particularly good, and started playing around the 28/6 range for full ring. I basically just played my hand, and really didn't pay attention to who else was at the table.

Stage 2, I became somewhat of a regular in the micro forum. I had downloaded PT and GT+, and bought and read SSH. Very quickly my game started to improve immensely. I started to use reads in my play, became tighter and more aggressive. As I became more experienced, I got the SSH concepts down better, and basically played very ABC good poker at the low limits, which is good enough to kill those games.

I moved to 6-max play, but stayed in the micro forums. For my first 10K hands or so, I was too tight and not aggressive enough, playing a 20/12 style. I got myself to start reading and contributing to HUSH, and my game jumped by leaps and bounds again. I began to learn the importance of aggression, blind stealing (ex: I used to fold JTo on the button when folded to me), and blind defense. I became looser and more aggressive (currently 26/19). I learned all sorts of good new lines and plays to make in different situations.

Well now I'm playing 5/10, and I'm not finding it too difficult, but certainly not as easy as the 3/6 or 1/2 games. I feel like I'm an average winner, probably somewhere in between 1-2 BB/100. The trouble is, I don't want to be average. I want to kill these games, I want to be making 3BB/100 and I want to feel very comfortable when I move to 10/20.

My game seems to have come to a bit of a plateau however - I don't feel I'm getting significantly better anymore. Sure, I read and post hands, and contribute to threads, but I don't feel it's doing as much for my game as it used to. So what can I do to bring my game to 'the next level'?

I've read SSH (once) and TOP, and I own HEPFAP but have only read a few sections (such as the SH part). I've done a hand reviewing session with another poster when we both moved up to 3/6 which I found helpful.

For those who do find they can kill the 5/10 games or higher, what types of things have you done that you found really helped your game? For everyone else, what types of things are you doing right now to elevate your game? I'm sure I have probably skipped some important steps along the way, as I have moved up fairly quickly relative to the number of total hands I have played. Are there any books out there that have made significant impacts on your game that I haven't mentioned already?

Post your thoughts and advice.

[Redd]

Maybe you should consider a coach. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=4081356&an=0&page=0&gone w=1#UNREAD)

[scotty34]

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe you should consider a coach. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=4081356&an=0&page=0&gone w=1#UNREAD)

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, that is one thing that I am strongly considering. I'm wondering what kind of effect that could have on my game though. From what I understand, it is pretty expensive to do that. I think I will send off a few PMs to people who have undergone coaching to see what they have to say about it.

[climber]

start reading the high stakes forum and see how much of it you understand. look for the factors they use in their analyses and also note the factors they dismiss.

[Monty Cantsin]

Do EV calcs away from the table.

Take spontaneous, just for fun, shots at bigger games once in a while.

Get together the best poker players you know and play some .50/1. Play this game as if your life depended on it, play to get the money. After each hand, or after the entire session, expose all non-seen cards and discuss any interesting hands. If you do this, please invite me even though I don't fit criteria number one. I used to love the old SS games that were like this, and found them surprisingly profitable. That's right I'm calling you out, bitchez.

Play more live poker.

Pay close attention to the metagame.

Read the old, old, old archives.

Play some NL.

Play some STTs.

Play some MTTs.

None of these have worked for me yet, hopefully YMMV!

/mc

Also, try changing your belt buckle, Maybe the gods of stochastic processes are getting back at you!

[SparkyDog]

Game and seat selection. I really don't think 3BB/100 is possible without paying quite a bit of attention to those two factors. Also to paraphrase The Mason in one of the Poker Essays books, after a player reaches a certain techincal proficiency, his most important decision is game selection.

[ QUOTE ]
Well now I'm playing 5/10, and I'm not finding it too difficult, but certainly not as easy as the 3/6 or 1/2 games. I feel like I'm an average winner, probably somewhere in between 1-2 BB/100. The trouble is, I don't want to be average. I want to kill these games, I want to be making 3BB/100 and I want to feel very comfortable when I move to 10/20.

[/ QUOTE ]

Haha, shut up man. You're lucky to be making 2 BB/100 at the 5/10 games. In my opinion, the Limit games are tightening up and getting harder to sustain a high winrate. Good luck with 3BB/100.

[scotty34]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well now I'm playing 5/10, and I'm not finding it too difficult, but certainly not as easy as the 3/6 or 1/2 games. I feel like I'm an average winner, probably somewhere in between 1-2 BB/100. The trouble is, I don't want to be average. I want to kill these games, I want to be making 3BB/100 and I want to feel very comfortable when I move to 10/20.

[/ QUOTE ]

Haha, shut up man. You're lucky to be making 2 BB/100 at the 5/10 games. In my opinion, the Limit games are tightening up and getting harder to sustain a high winrate. Good luck with 3BB/100.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm quite confident that 5/10 can be beat for 3+ BB/100 given that one plays very well and has good table selection as mentioned above. There are so many players there that are just plain BAD. Ask some of the players in the mid-high SH forum, and I'm sure they will tell you that it is very possible to run over the 5/10 game.

game selection is just so key, that's right. i always hit up the high avg. pot tables and leave if they dry up or i'm in a bad seat. once i get a good table i stay as long as possible and cash in.

[scotty34]

[ QUOTE ]
game selection is just so key, that's right. i always hit up the high avg. pot tables and leave if they dry up or i'm in a bad seat. once i get a good table i stay as long as possible and cash in.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's how I used to do game selection. However, I think most have realized there is a FAR better method. Open up PT/Poker Ace and about 6-8 tables, and just leave or browse 2+2 for 30 mins, come back and see what you have. Join the waitlist for any of the good lookin ones, and try and get good seats. The average pot method is very unreliable.

[tallstack]

I feel like a lot of what you are saying mirrors what I am feeling.

[ QUOTE ]
I want to be making 3BB/100 and I want to feel very comfortable when I move to 10/20.

[/ QUOTE ]

The 5/10 game does seem crushable, given the selection of players that are on a typical target table. However, I don't think that many people stay that long at 5/10 to find out if they crush this level. For those the run well, or truly destroy the competition, it is a quick move up to 10/20. From my memory, most posters who have since moved up have overall win rates between 1 and 2, so you must be doing many things right. Maybe you just need the increased competition that you would find at a higher level to bring out the best in you? I do agree that it is important from a confidence level to feel like you are crushing a level before moving up.

I don't really have any good advice since I don't fit into the 'crushing' category, but here are some random thougts. I can't imagine that there is any better learning tool than this forum. I am trying to focus on posting here more and reading opponents better - varying my play and trusting reads. I also find it helpful to read a book or forum about a different game then the one I am currently playing. Right now I am reading HOH I and II although 90% of my hands are in 6-max. For whatever reason it keeps things fresh, and I think it helps on the tables.

FWIW, I have read several of your recent posts and I think that your advice is spot on. Maybe you need to get a little out of your comfort zone and take a few stabs at some soft 10/20 tables? Maybe also try a switch in games for a while. Play 100 SNGs and then come back to 6-max. Chances are there will be something that carries over between them to improve your overall game.

[popeye18]

[ QUOTE ]
Well now I'm playing 5/10, and I'm not finding it too difficult, but certainly not as easy as the 3/6 or 1/2 games. I feel like I'm an average winner, probably somewhere in between 1-2 BB/100.

[/ QUOTE ]


How many tables do u play?

[scotty34]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well now I'm playing 5/10, and I'm not finding it too difficult, but certainly not as easy as the 3/6 or 1/2 games. I feel like I'm an average winner, probably somewhere in between 1-2 BB/100.

[/ QUOTE ]


How many tables do u play?

[/ QUOTE ]

between 2 and 4, depends on how I'm feeling at the time - I think I should stop 4-tabling for a few thousand hands though just because I can even see myself the mistakes I make as I make them.

[eisanm]

I, too want to kill my games. I am satisfied however if I win at least 1,5bb/100 on any given limit.

Keep in mind that the average player has a winrate of between 0 and -2 bb/100, so you are far better than average already.

I can also see the point in going up to 10-20 instead of trying to improve your WR by 0.5bb/100 if you already win as much as you do at 5-10.

I only play 2-4 so far.

Good luck,

[surfdoc]

[ QUOTE ]
I feel like a lot of what you are saying mirrors what I am feeling.

[ QUOTE ]
I want to be making 3BB/100 and I want to feel very comfortable when I move to 10/20.

[/ QUOTE ]

The 5/10 game does seem crushable, given the selection of players that are on a typical target table. However, I don't think that many people stay that long at 5/10 to find out if they crush this level. For those the run well, or truly destroy the competition, it is a quick move up to 10/20. From my memory, most posters who have since moved up have overall win rates between 1 and 2, so you must be doing many things right. Maybe you just need the increased competition that you would find at a higher level to bring out the best in you? I do agree that it is important from a confidence level to feel like you are crushing a level before moving up.

I don't really have any good advice since I don't fit into the 'crushing' category, but here are some random thougts. I can't imagine that there is any better learning tool than this forum. I am trying to focus on posting here more and reading opponents better - varying my play and trusting reads. I also find it helpful to read a book or forum about a different game then the one I am currently playing. Right now I am reading HOH I and II although 90% of my hands are in 6-max. For whatever reason it keeps things fresh, and I think it helps on the tables.

FWIW, I have read several of your recent posts and I think that your advice is spot on. Maybe you need to get a little out of your comfort zone and take a few stabs at some soft 10/20 tables? Maybe also try a switch in games for a while. Play 100 SNGs and then come back to 6-max. Chances are there will be something that carries over between them to improve your overall game.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you guys may be surprised at how few players can and have beat the 5/10 at 3/100 over a large sample...say 100K hands or larger. This is especially true since the rake increase.

[Wynton]

In my opinion, the only way to "crush" 5/10 or above, i.e., earn 3bb or more, is to make a concerted effort at proper table selection.

From my perspective, there are plenty of bad 5/10 players, but also plenty of good ones. If you just sit down at tables randomly -- or more precisely, if you neglect to move when table conditions are not ideal - you will not reach the 3 bb level.

[scotty34]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you guys may be surprised at how few players can and have beat the 5/10 at 3/100 over a large sample...say 100K hands or larger. This is especially true since the rake increase.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm aware that it does take an elite player to be able to do this. However, that was my point. Obviously not everyone here will be able to achieve that. The fact that I know its possible however, is what is driving me to want it. I don't know if becoming an elite player as opposed to just a good player is something that can be done just through hard work, or takes natural ability or what. I'm trying to discover some of those things I can do though.

[surfdoc]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think you guys may be surprised at how few players can and have beat the 5/10 at 3/100 over a large sample...say 100K hands or larger. This is especially true since the rake increase.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm aware that it does take an elite player to be able to do this. However, that was my point. Obviously not everyone here will be able to achieve that. The fact that I know its possible however, is what is driving me to want it. I don't know if becoming an elite player as opposed to just a good player is something that can be done just through hard work, or takes natural ability or what. I'm trying to discover some of those things I can do though.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think poker is like most other things in that you can get pretty good if you work hard and have average intelligence. To be truly elite, you will need some god given talent and intelligence to go with the dedication.

[kapw7]

I beat Prima 5/10 for 3.10 BB/100 /images/graemlins/grin.gif
Over 1186 hands /images/graemlins/frown.gif

According to the forum guidelines we shouldn't care about winrate.
Try to explain to your bank manager that your sample size is too small...