200/400 bellagio vs v good player

[bicyclekick]

Same 200/400 as the other post (full table) . A couple hours later and I'm still running good with a very good tight/solid image. The villain in the hand is terry...a local woman who IMO is the best player at the table(and i'm either 2nd or a close third...so it's a decent game for 2 and 4). I know she respects my play quite a bit by a few comments she's made and we really haven't banged heads much yet. I've 3 bet her in position a few times and she's check/folded the flop. She hasn't been doing this vs other players so I think she thinks I'm pretty tight but maybe it's just the cards she's gotten vs me.

She opens in the CO which is no suprise(she opens a lot of hands...), especially on my blind. I've been givin it up pretty easily this session as the situations just haven't been right.

Folded to me in the BB with K/images/graemlins/club.gifJ/images/graemlins/heart.gif and I 3 bet. This is the 2nd time I've put a raise in out of the blinds and the last time I had kings and showed it down.

She calls.

Flop J/images/graemlins/spade.gif8/images/graemlins/spade.gif3/images/graemlins/spade.gif

I bet, she raises, I call.

Turn 5/images/graemlins/club.gif I bet, she raises, I insta 3 bet.

[ike]

Yah, that looks good. 3 betting preflop given the situation seems to make it much easier to beat ace high. The stop and go seems right since you don't want her checking behind the turn nor do you want to just go off on the flop where her pair and spade hand isn't actually giving your top pair any money. Given that she raises the turn, I think the 3bet is clearly right as you should be well ahead of her range of hands here.

[limon]

in my experience players dont semi bluff raise twice. david even writes this in hpfap. on the turn your donk looks like your protecting a solid made hand. her raise says she can beat a solid made hand. your generally losing at this point no reason to 3 bet but the pot is big enough to call down.

[skp]

The turn bet is excellent IMO but I agree with Limon that 3 betting the turn is a bit dicey. It's a great 3 bet if she will then drop a hand with a medium ranking spade in it but I don't think she will. It can also be a great 3 bet for some metagame purposes. But overall, getting popped twice in one hand is not good news.

If you think she is doing the old "raise turn, go for free river showdown play", you could foil that plan somewhat by betting the river assuming it's not a spade. Of course, if she pops you again and wins, you would be a reverse trifecta victim.

[J.A.Sucker]

Hi BK,

I hate your 3 bet preflop against a top player. You are out of position and will miss most times.

I don't like your flop aciton, either. 3 bet and lead the turn. Then, call if raised. I'd check call any river, unless it's a non-spade K. A non-spade J is closer.

One main problem with being out of position in headsup battles is you don't get that bet on the end that you can often get in position. Too bad.

[skp]

[ QUOTE ]
I hate your 3 bet preflop against a top player. You are out of position and will miss most times.


[/ QUOTE ]

While I tend also to usually just call for the reasons you state, many would argue (somewhat forcefully) that because both players will miss most times, it's important to 3 bet and seize the initiative.

I would call 60% and 3 bet 40%. Maybe it's 65/35...whatever

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
I hate your 3 bet preflop against a top player. You are out of position and will miss most times.


[/ QUOTE ]


if there is a reason to just call preflop its to checkraise most flops. i dont understand how "it will miss most times" is an argument for calling with KJ against someone who is presumably raising like 40-50% of her hands. obviously just calling and letting it go if he misses is sub-optimal. so what is your plan when you just call? how much attacking do you do on the flop?

i think good K high hands are the best non-premium hands to 3-bet in this spot. you have good HU equity and you take initiative against A/K high or small pairs and put the burden on them to flop good. if he has 33 and the flop is A97, she will fold to a bet, whereas bk wouldve had to check fold because he missed (and a checkraise on the flop basically screams "I don't have an A"). likewise, if the flop is something like T87 or Q98 it is hard for A high to continue if she hasnt paired her kicker.

[poker1O1]

put urself in her shoes. it seems like she's tryin to get a lot of bets in, but not scare you off too much. I think it's bare minimum AsJ, possible overpair, or even flush.

[Paluka]

I like it. I wish I played hands like this more myself.

[gaming_mouse]

BK,

Do you do this for the chance she'll fold AJ or other better hands to your 3bet?

[goofball]

I agree that 3betting preflop is good most of the time for all those reasons. KJ is ahead of her button opening range i think, you get initiative and maybe start to convice her to back off a little. Betting and raising is better then checking and calling, I think you should have just 3bet the flop. Given that you didn't I sort of like calling the turn raise and betting a safe river. She doesn't get to check behind on the river, she doesn't get to four bet you on the turn and i always feel like this line extracts more honest action from your opponent on future hands.

[Philuva]

I like it. I only played with Terri a couple of times, but I remember her raising my turn donk bets every time fwiw. Obviously, I would like it a lot more if you had AJ as it probably takes away 2 of her outs and it will get you an additional bet or two if an A hits. I think it is important to play some marginal hands like this in these situations to take away her raising the turn for free showdowns for fear of being 3 bet.

What do you do if she 4 bets or a spade hits the river? Either way I think against her you need to get to showdown, so if the turn 3 bet will cause you to fold I don't like it as much.

[bicyclekick]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi BK,

I hate your 3 bet preflop against a top player. You are out of position and will miss most times.



[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not a big 3 better out of the blinds, but this one isn't even remotely close. I have a very solid image, she's giving me lots of respect...it's time to jack it up with KJ because like you said, I'm going to miss a lot. So is she. This helps me win the pot. I also have the best hand here most of the time too.

[elindauer]

[ QUOTE ]
...a checkraise on the flop basically screams "I don't have an A"...

[/ QUOTE ]

A checkraise on an ace high flop screams you don't have an ace? What are you talking about?

[elindauer]

[ QUOTE ]
it's important to 3 bet and seize the initiative.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is such a common belief, that I'd like to discuss it further. Why, exactly, do you have to 3-bet to seize the initiative? Is there some rule that you can't bet the flop unless you 3-bet preflop?

I think people get in this mode where they either have the lead, in which case they bet the next round, or they don't have the lead, in which case they check. This causes all kinds of weird suggestions like the idea that you must 3-bet because otherwise you are forced to check-fold an ace high flop. Huh? Why don't you just bet the flop??

-Eric

[Paluka]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
it's important to 3 bet and seize the initiative.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is such a common belief, that I'd like to discuss it further. Why, exactly, do you have to 3-bet to seize the initiative? Is there some rule that you can't bet the flop unless you 3-bet preflop?

I think people get in this mode where they either have the lead, in which case they bet the next round, or they don't have the lead, in which case they check. This causes all kinds of weird suggestions like the idea that you must 3-bet because otherwise you are forced to check-fold an ace high flop. Huh? Why don't you just bet the flop??

-Eric

[/ QUOTE ]

Because when you donkbet the flop, people never trust it. So a better hand never folds, because your flop bet looks weird to them. You might be able to get a worse hand to fold though, which is better than them making you fold.

[roy_miami]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
it's important to 3 bet and seize the initiative.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is such a common belief, that I'd like to discuss it further. Why, exactly, do you have to 3-bet to seize the initiative? Is there some rule that you can't bet the flop unless you 3-bet preflop?

I think people get in this mode where they either have the lead, in which case they bet the next round, or they don't have the lead, in which case they check. This causes all kinds of weird suggestions like the idea that you must 3-bet because otherwise you are forced to check-fold an ace high flop. Huh? Why don't you just bet the flop??

-Eric

[/ QUOTE ]

I know if I'm the CO I give up much easier when I miss the flop the way BK played it.

If this does somehow get to showdown the villain will likely start 4 betting most everything she steals with to take back the initiative, or she will start playing back harder post flop. Is this good or bad for you? Do you then 5 bet sometimes to sieze the initiative again?

[HiatusOver]

This is a very good hand to post, keep the live 200-400 hands coming. I think I like your line up to this point. We have yet to talk about the river but if u got there it was probably an interesting street itself. If somehow u could check-call a blank river to snap-off her 3rd semi-bluff with a high spade that would be like really cool. Any chance u tried it?

[skp]

whoa...no fair just quoting a portion of my post.

My words were "<u>many would argue</u> (somewhat forcefully)....it is important to 3 bet to seize the initiative.

[PokerBob]

sure, but i think you gotta give up the ghost if she goes 4.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]


I hate your 3 bet preflop against a top player. You are out of position and will miss most times.


[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with this. BK said that he has given her quite a bit of rope when he is in the blinds, and it is reasonable to believe that she is opneing very liberally against him. Being OOP sucks, but he likely has an equity edge agaisnt her range, not to mention the fact that last time he popped her back he showed down KK. IMO it is also good for metagame purposes to let her know she isn't gonna get a free ride every time she opens.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
it's important to 3 bet and seize the initiative.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is such a common belief, that I'd like to discuss it further. Why, exactly, do you have to 3-bet to seize the initiative? Is there some rule that you can't bet the flop unless you 3-bet preflop?

I think people get in this mode where they either have the lead, in which case they bet the next round, or they don't have the lead, in which case they check. This causes all kinds of weird suggestions like the idea that you must 3-bet because otherwise you are forced to check-fold an ace high flop. Huh? Why don't you just bet the flop??

-Eric

[/ QUOTE ]

IMO it is much easier to get them to fold (a) a better hand or (b) a hand with odds to draw if you take this "initiative" thingy.

If she opens A7o and gets 3 bets by BB, IMO she's gonna have a hard time justifying a calldown if the board comes Q92.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
it's important to 3 bet and seize the initiative.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is such a common belief, that I'd like to discuss it further. Why, exactly, do you have to 3-bet to seize the initiative? Is there some rule that you can't bet the flop unless you 3-bet preflop?

I think people get in this mode where they either have the lead, in which case they bet the next round, or they don't have the lead, in which case they check. This causes all kinds of weird suggestions like the idea that you must 3-bet because otherwise you are forced to check-fold an ace high flop. Huh? Why don't you just bet the flop??

-Eric

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm neither a high-stakes player nor a limit player, but (in addition to the fact that we're often ahead) don't we 3-bet preflop here to 1) get more action on our premium hands and 2) to make sure premium hands are in our range on this specific hand.

The reason calling preflop and donking a flop isn't as successful, IMHO, is because when we 3-bet preflop, bet the flop, our opponent has to include preflop monsters in our range, which are very likely to have our opponent wrecked on most flops.

[gaming_mouse]

A general question about this comment:

[ QUOTE ]
The villain in the hand is terry...a local woman who IMO is the best player at the table(and i'm either 2nd or a close third...so it's a decent game for 2 and 4).

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm curious what made you feel that she was better than you, and how long you'd been playing with her before you decided this? Is this a player you know extremely well, or do you make evaluations like this after, say, she makes one or two creative moves that are clearly correct and that you would not have made yourself?

[PokerPrince]

Great seinfeld quote for your location Gaming Mouse, lol.

[Tommy Angelo]

I like the way you played it, and your afterthoughts.

As to metagame, the only reason I could see for NOT playing it the way you did (I'm thinking mainly about your reraise on the turn, not the preflop reraise) is that if your hand gets shown down, it might get this particular opponent to start coming at you a little harder, a little more often. Or maybe even a lot harder, a lot more often. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing in your world. I don't know. But it is something you had a large amount of control over. If you two had evolved a non-spoken non-interference pact, it likely evolved because it was to your mutual benefit. In that case, this hand would/could be seen as a treaty-breaker. Then the blood flows, which is fine, as long as it's not yours!

As to what I would have done, well, I live a much simpler life than you do.

"The villain in the hand ... is the best player at the table."

I would have kept the peace by folding before the flop.

Tommy

[DcifrThs]

keep posting these 2/4 hands.

im putting myself in her shoes and thinking what id need to have to a) raise the turn, b) call your 3 bet, c) 4bet the turn, d) call the river after the 3bet.

i think preflop is a side note in this hand although it plays into the above requirements. 3betting here isn't bad and needs to be done occasionally. personally id be more likely to call a bit more often than is probably optimal as is my style in the bb OOP. your play here is fine.

first question: did you plan on bet/3betting after she raised the flop (and the turn comes favorable)? (did you have a read on her?)

if so, what did you put her on at that point b/c i think there's a decent chance you're beat right now if this hand got to the river. the only hands that match my questions above about continuing past the turn 3 bet are those hands that contain a pair+flush draw, flush draw, overpair+flush draw, very aggressively played AA/KK no spade, a made flush, or an outlandish bluff. this last part is important to consider b/c when good players who haven't gotten HU before but know each other knows each other, there could be a propensity for attempt to outplay/overplay certain holdings as the player thinks that the other player will give more respect and recognizing times to win pots like this at these limits is a huge coup. still, id say its a fairly large unlikelihood at the point she raises the turn.

what i think is great about the turn 3 bet is that she now has to call all pair + spade hands but is not happy about it. the problem is if the hand continues the hands you beat are ones that are drawing to Qs/Js and have the jack or the As and has the 8. i dont think she has TT here ever really.

if i played this hand id probably call the turn and call a non spade river and bet a spade river.

which brings us to the river which, if it got there, is im sure interesting after the turn 3bet. if she calls the turn 3bet and it blanks off i think you need to bet. but if you get called, damn, its close to being a check on the river. the reasont eh 3bet on the turn is good is the same reason why a check on the river is good: she has to call the 3 bet w/ spades on the turn but now can't call the river.

anyways, im sorry i can't give a more clear cut response.

Barron

[elindauer]

[ QUOTE ]
when we 3-bet preflop, bet the flop, our opponent has to include preflop monsters in our range...

[/ QUOTE ]

You're making the assumption that we never just call and donk the flop with premium hands, or call and check-raise the flop with these hands. I would argue that you in fact should be doing this a lot.

-Eric

[elindauer]

[ QUOTE ]
IMO it is much easier to get them to fold (a) a better hand or (b) a hand with odds to draw if you take this "initiative" thingy.

[/ QUOTE ]

The bigger the pot, the more she should be inclined to call down. If just calling and betting the flop results in her always getting stubborn, then you should simply start doing it with your premium hands as well as those times you catch the flop. You'll crush her heads up this way.

-Eric

[elindauer]

[ QUOTE ]
Because when you donkbet the flop, people never trust it. So a better hand never folds, because your flop bet looks weird to them.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you don't see how easily exploitable this is then you are not trying very hard. Simply stop 3-betting all your big hands preflop. Donk the flop. Also, whenever you do catch the flop, donk into the pfr.

After badly misplaying you for a while and giving you way too much action, they'll start to change strategies. Now you can begin playing the KJ this way.

-Eric

[elindauer]

[ QUOTE ]
If this does somehow get to showdown the villain will likely start 4 betting most everything she steals with to take back the initiative, or she will start playing back harder post flop. Is this good or bad for you? Do you then 5 bet sometimes to sieze the initiative again?

[/ QUOTE ]

All this confusion over "the inititive" stems, would argue, from the fact that players have come to view "having the initiative" as meaningful the way "having position" or "having pocket aces" is meaningful. They feel that the initiative somehow makes it more likely that you will win the hand.

I agree that in practice, there is some truth to this. People tend to play suboptimally when they do not have the initiative, in that they often check to the guy with the initiative. Also, most players prefer to play their big hands very straightforward preflop, leaving their only deceptive option the "raise with crap" option. In this sense, having the initiative is the only way they can win with mediocre cards, because they will always have the initiative when they have big cards.

Open your mind to the idea that you don't have to 3-bet your big hands every time. You don't have to check to the raiser when you flop top pair. Imagine how your opponents are going to respond to that. You'll find that there are only two possibilities:

1. they give you so much action on your good hands that you don't need to win with the weak ones

2. they start respecting your bets even when you don't have the initiative. Suddenly, you don't need the initiative to make a bet and take down the pot.


There's another possibility, which is that your donk bets don't respect early and you know this, so you only donk your good hands and crush them. Then they start catching on and start folding, so you change gears and crush them even more. With the constant turnover in typical games these days, being a player who goes against the tide and does a lot of donking with good and bad hands alike could be very profitable. Your opponents will not have a lot of experience with this strategy.

good luck.
eric

[ggbman]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi BK,

I hate your 3 bet preflop against a top player. You are out of position and will miss most times.

I don't like your flop aciton, either. 3 bet and lead the turn. Then, call if raised. I'd check call any river, unless it's a non-spade K. A non-spade J is closer.

One main problem with being out of position in headsup battles is you don't get that bet on the end that you can often get in position. Too bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

This pre-flop logic makes 0 sense. Ok, so she's raising shittons of hands and respects him, lets get her to fold A-2-A9 on boards that dont hit her.

[ggbman]

I like this a lot. Her turn raise can very easily be 99-TT with a spade for free showdown. Fold to a 4 bet obviously.

[J.A.Sucker]

The person who wins most pots when it goes miss-miss is the person with position, period. KJ has little showdown value, and 3 betting makes the pot bigger. Ironically, by doing what you suggest, you make it harder for her to fold on the flop or turn when it is missed around. Why would you build the pot up with this hand? Look back at Steve G's hand against Mimi Tran and think about it. Similar thinking applies here.

[Lestat]

Like the 3-bet pre-flop. Also like the stop 'n go. The 3 bet on the turn is up to you. I certainly don't find too much fault with it, particularily if you're setting up for future play. I think I usually prefer to call the turn raise and lead a non spade on the river though.

[golferbrent]

I love the insta 3 bet b/c it signifies a lot of strength here and that is what you need. Besides I think there are a lot of holdings here that you are still ahead of.

In addition, I think that the 3 bet preflop is a good play as well. I see no reason to not 3 bet her here if she is opening as often as you say she is. Irregardless of the outcome of the hand I think you played the hand as well as you could.

[Lestat]

<font color="blue">I love the insta 3 bet b/c it signifies a lot of strength here and that is what you need. </font>

Why is signifying strength important with top pair/2nd best kicker on this board? What hands will fold that aren't supposed to? I don't see many hands that will be lured into making a mistake.

btw- I'm not saying 3-betting isn't good, just that you confused me with the importance of signigying strength comment.

[golferbrent]

I agree... probably not important to signify strength. My thinking was that the 3 bet is the correct play... but 3 betting after thinking about it... does not feel correct. 3 betting as a reaction to the situation probably means that it is the most correct play, instead of taking the time to convince yourself.

My thought was probably more for internal thought purposes as opposed to outward display and consumption.

[bicyclekick]

she folded her A8 on the turn to my 3 bet.

Usually this 3 bet is bad but it was one of those "i was there" 3 bets that 'fealt' like the right play. Dunno how I can feel that but it just seemed right.

[limon]

exactly why 3 betting the turn is a bad play.

[stinkypete]

[ QUOTE ]

Turn 5/images/graemlins/club.gif I bet, she raises, I insta 3 bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

what's the significance of the insta 3-bet?

are you trying to show strength? i don't see much reason for representing a stronger hand. i highly doubt she's folding a better one. or are you hoping she'll fold a range of hands with odds to draw that she might not to a "regular" 3-bet? what's your read on her perceived significance of the insta 3-bet?

or do you just mean that you 3-bet without having to give it a second thought, knowing it was very likely correct?

[Philuva]

[ QUOTE ]
exactly why 3 betting the turn is a bad play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Getting her to fold a hand with 5 outs rather than her taking a free showdown or betting the river if she improves is not a bad play.

If you read my original post I commented on how she seems to raise turn donk bets fairly frequently and I think it is important to 3 bet her in order to take away of her positional edge. Of course, I would never discuss with her what my hand was, but that is just me.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
The person who wins most pots when it goes miss-miss is the person with position, period. KJ has little showdown value, and 3 betting makes the pot bigger. Ironically, by doing what you suggest, you make it harder for her to fold on the flop or turn when it is missed around. Why would you build the pot up with this hand? Look back at Steve G's hand against Mimi Tran and think about it. Similar thinking applies here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. In blind steals, it is often the last aggressor who wins the pot, not who has position. KJo indeed has virtually no SD value, but HU play is not always about SD. Sure the pot gets bigger when 3 bets go in preflop. It doesn't change the fact that she is gonna have a really hard time calling a flop bet with A2-A9 if she missed, even if she is getting 7.5:1 instead of 5.5:1. Not to mention the fact that KJ may indeed be the best hand preflop.

[blumpkin22]

[ QUOTE ]
KJo indeed has virtually no SD value

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Not to mention the fact that KJ may indeed be the best hand preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[limon]

she raised the turn w/o a draw. she thought her hand was good. she bets the river on a blank/calls if you lead into her on a helper for you. you make more/lose less.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
KJo indeed has virtually no SD value

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Not to mention the fact that KJ may indeed be the best hand preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[Philuva]

[ QUOTE ]
she raised the turn w/o a draw. she thought her hand was good. she bets the river on a blank/calls if you lead into her on a helper for you. you make more/lose less.

[/ QUOTE ]

No. She raised the turn because she thought her hand might be best and to charge a draw where she could take a free showdown. She knows IF BK called her turn raise there is no value in betting the river unless she imrpoves because either BK is on a draw and will not call or has a made hand better than her hand and will call her river bet. She uses her positional edge to extract the max and lose the min against a passive player. It also has the added benefit of potentially folding some better hands, like 99 ot TT or a weak J.

By BK willing to 3 bet the turn it helps negate some of her positional edge as she will be less inclined to use this move against him and play more straight forward against him in the future because now she will be more inclined to get to showdown. Plus she doesnt get to she his cards which has added benefits (until he tells her).

An important note in all of this is that BK needs to realize that her future turn raises against him will probably have more strength as she now must fear a turn 3 bet from him and she will be less willing to do this with marginal hands.

I guess you didn't bother to count the size of the pot.

After Terri's raise on the turn, there is 8.25BB in the pot. If BK just calls, she gets infinite odds on a 5-outer. If he 3-bets, she is getting 10.25:1 (plus implied odds) on an 8:1 shot. Her fold to his 3-bet is incorrect and loses money for her and wins money for BK. So his 3-bet turns out to be a great play.

-v

[Philuva]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess you didn't bother to count the size of the pot.

After Terri's raise on the turn, there is 8.25BB in the pot. If BK just calls, she gets infinite odds on a 5-outer. If he 3-bets, she is getting 10.25:1 (plus implied odds) on an 8:1 shot. Her fold to his 3-bet is incorrect and loses money for her and wins money for BK. So his 3-bet turns out to be a great play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Great point vkh. I meant to include that point in my reply as well.

[blumpkin22]

You say that KJ has no showdown value yet say it might win unimproved, hence the /images/graemlins/confused.gif.

[J_V]

[ QUOTE ]
terry...a local woman who IMO is the best player at the table

[/ QUOTE ]

Negative. nowhere near the best. You are better for sure. The game looks super soft lately though especially with the lineups you've described. I'm gonna throw the name Van Nguyen out there for best player in that game.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
...a checkraise on the flop basically screams "I don't have an A"...

[/ QUOTE ]

A checkraise on an ace high flop screams you don't have an ace? What are you talking about?

[/ QUOTE ]


very few players checkraise an A on the flop after defending their blinds. it is way more typical for someone to check-call the flop, and it deviates from there. a raggy ace is certainly not cehckraising there. its a hand looking for action, or its a bluff, and the latter is way more common.