QQ overpair hand - $200 NL

[scdavis0]

My read on villain is he is just kinda goofy. Plays reasonable but gets tilty at time and does some weird stuff.


Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Button ($282.70)
SB ($55)
BB ($101.55)
UTG ($112.80)
Hero ($393.75)

Preflop: Hero is MP with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif. SB posts a blind of $1.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $7</font>, Button calls $7, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls $5.

Flop: ($22) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $20</font>, Button calls $20, BB folds.

Turn: ($62) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets $30</font>, Hero calls $30.

River: ($122) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $65</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to $130</font>, Hero calls $65.

Final Pot: $382

[beavens]

any reason for not betting the turn?

[ajmargarine]

I'd rather lead turn and c/c that river.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd rather lead turn and c/c that river.

[/ QUOTE ]

agreed. what hands are paying off the river? maybe 88-TT?

[rachelwxm]

I cannot put him a hand by river that min raise you and you beat.
A /images/graemlins/club.gifJ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif?
c/c river

[-Skeme-]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd rather lead turn and c/c that river.

[/ QUOTE ]

[JMP300z]

sean boy,

I understand why you cc the turn b/c you may have outs and dont want to get raised but id Check and reevalute on river when taking this line. That minraise reeks of a poor player w/ a flush. If he had 88-TT hed just call, JJ is beating you. Thatd be one hell of a sophisticated bluff. I understand that you bet b/c you cant expect 7x or 88-TT to bet for you but you can expect missed draws to bluff. Just some thoughts. I cant imagine you being good very often on the end.

-JP

[FreakDaddy]

I over bet the flop on draw heavy flops like this. Turn is fine, but I check/call the river when the board pairs. I think this is a win the most when ahead/least when behind play here.

[ QUOTE ]
I'd rather lead turn and c/c that river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, could someone explain the benefit of check calling the turn and leading the river?

IMHO, the way the hand was played I think you were getting raised on the turn if you led out anyway.

[ahnuld]

Just cc river. Let him bluff off chips with A or k clubs or make a dumb value bet with AJ.

[Phoenix1010]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd rather lead turn and c/c that river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, could someone explain the benefit of check calling the turn and leading the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because you don't want goofy to raise you off the best hand/a strong draw.

[scdavis0]

My reasoning for checking the turn is that with the queen of clubs in my hand, getting raised is just nasty. Without the queen of clubs my standard line would be to bet, bet, snap bluff.

I'm assuming that everyone who advocates betting the turn, similarly advocates folding to a raise. Playing a 300+BB hand with QQ here doesn't sound like fun.

Chances are pretty good that I have both the best hand AND the best draw so not a lot of harm in checking. It's also doubtful that I have NEITHER the best hand NOR the best draw.. making the prospect of bet/folding the turn just ugly.

On the river, I'm electing to get value from a ton of pairs that will look me up. Obviously I can't fold to the min-raise.

[iceman5]

[ QUOTE ]
My reasoning for checking the turn is that with the queen of clubs in my hand, getting raised is just nasty. Without the queen of clubs my standard line would be to bet, bet, snap bluff.

I'm assuming that everyone who advocates betting the turn, similarly advocates folding to a raise. Playing a 300+BB hand with QQ here doesn't sound like fun.

Chances are pretty good that I have both the best hand AND the best draw so not a lot of harm in checking. It's also doubtful that I have NEITHER the best hand NOR the best draw.. making the prospect of bet/folding the turn just ugly.

On the river, I'm electing to get value from a ton of pairs that will look me up. Obviously I can't fold to the min-raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Said the guy who lost the hand. Check/call river is better.

[scdavis0]

Do you fold here getting nearly 5 to 1?

[iceman5]

No, I would probably call and lose just like I think you did. Over my poker career, I would estimate that when I get min raised on the river, I lose 9 out of 10 times. So 5:1 doesnt cover it. Thats why they min raise you, because they know you cant fold.

Hence, check / call being better. Not too mention it gives him a chance to bluff. There are not too many hands that you beat that will call a value bet there.

But hey, Im in the middle of the worst losing streak of my career so my advice is probably worth what you paid for it.

[scdavis0]

If I'm good here 10% of the time why call?

If I'm not good what hands are you expecting to be shown that beat queens up?

And if I am shown one of these hands, it seems that I would have been raised on the turn had I bet and been forced to fold, despite drawing live against those hands.

[Isura]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you fold here getting nearly 5 to 1?

[/ QUOTE ]

Offcourse you have to call the minraise. That's why check/calling the river is usually preferred. When you bet/call that river, you lose the most when behind and only win the initial bet when ahead (unless offcourse the idiot can minraise here with a worst hand...)

Edit: I do like your line of check/calling this turn and your reasoning is good.l My usual line is to lead this turn, but I think your line is better. But doesn't checking the river induce some bluffs since you checked the turn and really looks like you were drawing?

[iceman5]

Why call if youre only good 10% of the time? Obviously you shouldnt. But almost everyone will anyway. I just hardly ever see anyone minimum raise the river and lose the hand.

I see people win alot more often when they min raise the river than when they make a much larger raise.

I honestly cant figure out what he has which is why Im 99% sure I would call his raise and Im pretty sure I would lose just based on long term results of similar situations.

It seems like he has the flush, but he played it strangly. You said he was goofy so that could explain his strange line.

[scdavis0]

Now that I've got one guy agreeing with the turn play let's look a little deeper.

1. If he has made flush less than King hi, check-calling is better because it costs the same as betting but I actually get to see a river when I'm drawing live

2. If he has a set, check-calling is way better because it costs the same as betting but I actuall get to see the river when I'm drawing quite live

3. If he has a made flush king high or ace high, then bet/folding is better because it saves me money the times on the river that I actually hit my own flush and it's no good

4. If he has any smaller pair (99-TT with or without a club, 66 with a club), he'll likely bet when checked to but not call a bet -- here I have him drawing to 1-2 outs

5. If he has AJ with ace of club or KJ with K of club I avoid getting blasted off the best hand

6. If he has a naked ace or king of clubs he may check or bet smallish and draw out for free/cheap

Against that hand range I think the check/call is the clear way to play the hand.

More on river later.

[Isura]

Good post. One question though:

[ QUOTE ]

1. If he has made flush less than King hi, check-calling is better because it costs the same as betting but I actually get to see a river when I'm drawing live

2. If he has a set, check-calling is way better because it costs the same as betting but I actuall get to see the river when I'm drawing quite live

[/ QUOTE ]

Is villain the type to NOT raise this turn with a set or flush? Because it might be cheaper to bet small on the turn to get a cheap showdown against this type of villain.

[scdavis0]

[ QUOTE ]
Why call if youre only good 10% of the time? Obviously you shouldnt. But almost everyone will anyway. I just hardly ever see anyone minimum raise the river and lose the hand.

I see people win alot more often when they min raise the river than when they make a much larger raise.

I honestly cant figure out what he has which is why Im 99% sure I would call his raise and Im pretty sure I would lose just based on long term results of similar situations.

It seems like he has the flush, but he played it strangly. You said he was goofy so that could explain his strange line.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't make much sense of this post. Is the river a +EV call?

[scdavis0]

[ QUOTE ]
Good post. One question though:

[ QUOTE ]

1. If he has made flush less than King hi, check-calling is better because it costs the same as betting but I actually get to see a river when I'm drawing live

2. If he has a set, check-calling is way better because it costs the same as betting but I actuall get to see the river when I'm drawing quite live

[/ QUOTE ]

Is villain the type to NOT raise this turn with a set or flush? Because it might be cheaper to bet small on the turn to get a cheap showdown against this type of villain.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm basing my assumptions on the fact that strong hands like flushes and sets will raise me on the turn.

[iceman5]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why call if youre only good 10% of the time? Obviously you shouldnt. But almost everyone will anyway. I just hardly ever see anyone minimum raise the river and lose the hand.

I see people win alot more often when they min raise the river than when they make a much larger raise.

I honestly cant figure out what he has which is why Im 99% sure I would call his raise and Im pretty sure I would lose just based on long term results of similar situations.

It seems like he has the flush, but he played it strangly. You said he was goofy so that could explain his strange line.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't make much sense of this post. Is the river a +EV call?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think Ive said several times that I dont think it is, but I know that I would make it anyway in the heat of the moment.

I agree with your check/call turn. I think you shouldve done the same on the river.

I dont think you knew if you were making a blocking bet or a value bet (maybe it was a combination). If you had gotten raised for real, you wouldve folded. Thats why his minimum raise is a good move alot of times. However, this time I dont know if it is or not depending on what he has. If he has a flush and he min raises you might come back over the top and hes has a tough decision. If he has a set / boat, he shouldve bet more on the turn. Thats why I cant put him on a hand but Im leaning towards the nut flush based on his small turn bet that seemed to want to keep you in the hand.

[iceman5]

So what happened?

[scdavis0]

Villain had 99 no club and mhig

The river seemed to be either some very sophisticated bluffing play or just stupidity

[Hattifnatt]

Fold to the river raise. The rest looks good.

[iceman5]

Id say it was stupidity. Like you said, you cant fold to the river minimum raise. Nobody ever does, so theres no way he can raise like that as a bluff. So, either he thought his hand was good which is idiotic.....or he thought he could min raise as a bluff, which is idiotic.

Id say hes an idiot. NH.

[savman]

for the people who are advocating leading turn...this is bad play for reasons scdavis stated. leading the turn gives opponent a chance to blow u off best hand/draw. on the river i prefer check call. this time u were agianst mega donk and he minraised with a hand u beat. this will often times not be the case. i think the play is check call the river as well. yea, u will miss thvalue on some meidum pp's (when they actually call) but u gain vlaue from bluffs, plus iditos value betting hand su beat. and u lose the least when behind since we are calling minraises.

[savman]

whoa, that isnt all i wanted to say. i meant lead river against loose passives and check call against tags and lags...yea that is what i meant to say.

[emil3000]

[ QUOTE ]
Villain had 99 no club and mhig

The river seemed to be either some very sophisticated bluffing play or just stupidity

[/ QUOTE ]

Very weird indeed. Against the hand he turned out to have you really made the maximum with this line, and if you checked it to him on the river he probably wouldn't bluff at it either. I really like your turn play, I don't know if I would have played it like that myself, but I will in the future. I am still not sure about the river. I agree with Savmans analysis, bet against loose passive, against aggros check call. Your bet looks fairly weak. Would you check the turn with a set? Maybe, but you would surely bet more on the river right? It looks exactly like the type of hand you have. So given your weak lead, I think you have to call against a weird opponent, and maybe this was exactly the point of the bet amount?

Check call is probably the standard low variance play, but I don't know if it maximizes value.

NH anyway.