A call I don't normally make

[Scuba Chuck]

After reading Citanul's so yesterday I just kept hitting the call button (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=4075665&an=0&page=4#Post 4075665), along with durron's two late play call examples, I came across this hand.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t150 (6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Hero (t700)
BB (t825)
UTG (t1405)
MP (t3180)
CO (t1020)
Button (t870)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, button raises allin, hero calls.

I still don't know how I feel about this.

[durron597]

I call here most of the time.

Edit: like I said yesterday, I have to have a read on the button as not being unusually tight.

[tigerite]

That's probably fine, but have you any reads on the button and also, on the BB?

[citanul]

that one seems like a call. doubling up = mass equity in this spot, and your hand should be good like, an amazing % of the time. it's not like it's the bubble.

i hope people aren't getting carried away with my post, though it looks like there might be some of that. the calls i was talking about were specifically not for your whole stack, and generally for under 1/2 your stack. i particularly was talking about calling off like 1/3 of your stack or so v a short stack PVSer with hands like 88 and such.

as for your call, looks nice.

c

[bluef0x]

Unless he's been pushing every hand, fold and don't even think twice.

Funny though- I made a call like this yesterday after reading that post... found myself against J7 /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[jb9]

I'm starting to feel a really strong urge to push preflop every time I get AA...

[Scuba Chuck]

My thoughts at the time...

Blinds are getting painful. Button's stack (2nd shorty) and position are ripe to be a steal hand. But most importantly, I am shorty at this table. My stack is virtually worthless right now. If I call and more than double up here, I'm a contender.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
Unless he's been pushing every hand, fold and don't even think twice.

Funny though- I made a call like this yesterday after reading that post... found myself against J7 /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

perhaps you should be thinking twice or even 3 times.

[bluef0x]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Unless he's been pushing every hand, fold and don't even think twice.

Funny though- I made a call like this yesterday after reading that post... found myself against J7 /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]


perhaps you should be thinking twice or even 3 times.

[/ QUOTE ]

After reading all the other posts I am. What makes you think he's pushing with a huge enough range? I don't see him pushing enough to make this +EV

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
that one seems like a call. doubling up = mass equity in this spot, and your hand should be good like, an amazing % of the time. it's not like it's the bubble.

i hope people aren't getting carried away with my post, though it looks like there might be some of that. the calls i was talking about were specifically not for your whole stack, and generally for under 1/2 your stack. i particularly was talking about calling off like 1/3 of your stack or so v a short stack PVSer with hands like 88 and such.

as for your call, looks nice.

c

[/ QUOTE ]

No I followed that in your post. I was referring to durron's responses specifically.

[liucipher]

thank you. your reasoning was so simple, i don't know why i never thought of it before. i think you may have plugged a weak/tight leak for me.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
After reading all the other posts I am. What makes you think he's pushing with a huge enough range? I don't see him pushing enough to make this +EV

[/ QUOTE ]

read scuba's comments on why he thinks it's time to call. then think about if the button's thinking the same things.

he's got 6 bets on the button. the blinds are good sizes him to steal against. he should be pushing a lot. even more, apparently, because people don't call close to enough out of the blinds.

c

[wuwei]

When I first saw Citanul's post, I thought it had a chance to be the coolest thing this forum has seen since the great PVS spree of 2005. I'm still excited about the prospects.

That being said, this is a call v. a lot ofplayers. I like it. I think most players who play more than a handful of SNGs have noticed that pushing over the blinds is common and the have adjusted their play. They call more with weak hands and push more with weak hands. You'll see junk in this case often enough to make calling the right play. Obviously, it's nice to have a read when making this decision.

[bluef0x]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
After reading all the other posts I am. What makes you think he's pushing with a huge enough range? I don't see him pushing enough to make this +EV

[/ QUOTE ]

read scuba's comments on why he thinks it's time to call. then think about if the button's thinking the same things.

he's got 6 bets on the button. the blinds are good sizes him to steal against. he should be pushing a lot. even more, apparently, because people don't call close to enough out of the blinds.

c

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you, I'm getting too carried away with just plugging in crap and not thinking about the whole situation.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
When I first saw Citanul's post, I thought it had a chance to be the coolest thing this forum has seen since the great PVS spree of 2005. I'm still excited about the prospects.

[/ QUOTE ]

thank you /images/graemlins/smile.gif

i'm thinking there's prospects that a lot of people might learn something, as i got my requisite handful of "no wonder you don't post more strategy, stop giving away free money to people" responses. one person even told me that it's ok to let everyone think i'm either a dufus or "mediocre." meh.

it sounded like a cool topic at the time.

c

[tigerite]

Well, you ARE a doofus for giving free money to people, some of us had already worked it out /images/graemlins/tongue.gif, but oh well /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[liucipher]

This may be too general, but what would be a solid calling range here?

*needs SNGPT like whoa*

[ZeroPointMachine]

[ QUOTE ]
My thoughts at the time...

Blinds are getting painful. Button's stack (2nd shorty) and position are ripe to be a steal hand. But most importantly, I am shorty at this table. My stack is virtually worthless right now. If I call and more than double up here, I'm a contender.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this reasoning and routinely call here.

How low will you go?

I'm good with A6o and A5s and squeemish below that.

Do you adjust at all for the fact that BTN is pushing into two short stacks? Would you put him on a tighter range if BB was a big stack?

[microbet]

I call.

Citanul has a big enough head already. I don't think we need to call this a Citancall or anything like that. Curtains has about a million posts yelling at people for not making calls like this and not very long ago Raptor bared his soul about how he needed to make more of these calls.

Anyway, it's a good call. You probably have the best hand. You are probably going to lose this tourney if you don't call. Make that Microcall!

[wuwei]

[ QUOTE ]

i'm thinking there's prospects that a lot of people might learn something, as i got my requisite handful of "no wonder you don't post more strategy, stop giving away free money to people" responses. one person even told me that it's ok to let everyone think i'm either a dufus or "mediocre." meh.

it sounded like a cool topic at the time.

c

[/ QUOTE ]

It is a cool topic, and one with potential to be grossly misapplied. I like it. But next time you get the idea to post something like that, you can just pm me instead /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I've been thinking about something for a while now that relates to the hand in this post. When things are roughly 5 handed, it's level 4 or later, and I am the short stack or one of a group of shortish stacks, I start thinking about what I call "race-seeking" behavior. I'm looking for an opportunity to race for all my chips and double up, which will put me in much better situation stackwise to cash in this SNG (think block theory). This hand is a clear example of that thinking. The key, as with everything, is just how far to go... I'm still working on that part.

[ QUOTE ]
.. But most importantly, I am shorty at this table ...

[/ QUOTE ]

Bingo!

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
Citanul has a big enough head already.

[/ QUOTE ]

[censored] dude, that's all just the jewfro, i need a haircut bad.

as for what it should be called, until people learn to make them as just a "call," they can call it a spite call if they want.

c

[GtrHtr]

[ QUOTE ]
This may be too general, but what would be a solid calling range here?

*needs SNGPT like whoa*

[/ QUOTE ]

This is very interesting. And the +EV of calling is huge on all but the tightest push ranges.

Call hands: 22+,A2+,K2+,Q2+,J2+,T2+,93o+,92s+,84o+,82s+,73o+,7 2s+,63o+,62s+,52+,43o,42s+,32s (94%)

I'm going to have to look at hand ranges, # of players and stack sizes for calling these pushers. I'm amazed at the numbers I got.

vs:
Any 2 is +7.3%
22+,A2s+,A3o+,KTs+,KJo+,QJs = +3.3%
22+,A2+,K2+,Q2s+,Q6o+,J7s+,J9o+,T8s+,98s = +5.7%
44+,A7s+,A9o+,KJs+ = +.7%
66+,ATs+,AJo+ = -.2%

[citanul]

i do not understand.

are you saying that with the huuuuge calling range, in durron's spot, the calls have those EVs against the listed pushing range? that seems really weird.

the thing you listed as calling range is absolutely absurd, being 94% of hands, unless this is really weird, and that's your point?

[junkmail3]

[ QUOTE ]
that one seems like a call. doubling up = mass equity in this spot, and your hand should be good like, an amazing % of the time. it's not like it's the bubble.

i hope people aren't getting carried away with my post, though it looks like there might be some of that. the calls i was talking about were specifically not for your whole stack, and generally for under 1/2 your stack. i particularly was talking about calling off like 1/3 of your stack or so v a short stack PVSer with hands like 88 and such.

as for your call, looks nice.

c

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. From the examples I've seen referencing your post (this one, durrons, maybe another in passing), the situations saying "I'm calling with worse hands than I used to", they have been nothing like your example.

This looks nothing like that example.

This looks like a pretty standard call to me.

[citanul]

yeah, continuing on pooh's bash of my ego: i just wanted to see what people think about calling more, and to tell people to call more. i really, really don't want people calling anything anything new or anything like that unless they want to call it the spite call. spite call = cool. other terms, not.

c

edit:

ooh, that's not true. when they make a spite call with like Qx, we call that the hate call.

[GtrHtr]

Do you mean Scuba's spot?

ok, my blinds were set wrong but here is the correct data with these blinds:

You think hes pushing any 2 your range is:
Call hands: 22+,A2+,K2+,Q2+,J2+,T2+,92+,82+,72+,62+,52+,42+,32 (100%)

very wacky.

correct EV calc.

vs:
Any 2 is +2.8%
22+,A2+,K2+,Q2s+,Q6o+,J7s+,J9o+,T8s+,98s = +1.5%
22+,A2s+,A3o+,KTs+,KJo+,QJs = -.6%
44+,A7s+,A9o+,KJs+ = -2.8%
66+,ATs+,AJo+ = -3.6%

My point is, calling here with this stack is +EV against a fair amount of pushers in the 33s in pushbot mode. I didn't have any idea the math would come out anything like this when I started messing with it.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you mean Scuba's spot?

ok, my blinds were set wrong but here is the correct data with these blinds:

You think hes pushing any 2 your range is:
Call hands: 22+,A2+,K2+,Q2+,J2+,T2+,92+,82+,72+,62+,52+,42+,32 (100%)

very wacky.

correct EV calc.

vs:
Any 2 is +2.8%
22+,A2+,K2+,Q2s+,Q6o+,J7s+,J9o+,T8s+,98s = +1.5%
22+,A2s+,A3o+,KTs+,KJo+,QJs = -.6%
44+,A7s+,A9o+,KJs+ = -2.8%
66+,ATs+,AJo+ = -3.6%

My point is, calling here with this stack is +EV against a fair amount of pushers in the 33s in pushbot mode. I didn't have any idea the math would come out anything like this when I started messing with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

gah, i'm still confused. at the bottom here, when you say "vs:" and then a bunch of lines, what you're saying is that the EV of calling with any two cards out of the blind is the number at the end of the line against the ranges provided?

so calling with any two against 66+, ATS+, AJo+ is -3.6%?

if this is true, it's a good example, however finding a calling range that's better than that is a little more important, useful, and relevant. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[schwza]

this assumes the BB folds AA, right? cause that's, um, probably not true.

[GtrHtr]

[ QUOTE ]
gah, i'm still confused. at the bottom here, when you say "vs:" and then a bunch of lines, what you're saying is that the EV of calling with any two cards out of the blind is the number at the end of the line against the ranges provided?

so calling with any two against 66+, ATS+, AJo+ is -3.6%?


[/ QUOTE ]

no, sorry its unclear. The first range are calling ranges against any 2. the remaining data is based on A7o.

[GtrHtr]

[ QUOTE ]
this assumes the BB folds AA, right? cause that's, um, probably not true.

[/ QUOTE ]

It assumes playing HU against the pusher.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
this assumes the BB folds AA, right? cause that's, um, probably not true.

[/ QUOTE ]

It assumes playing HU against the pusher.

[/ QUOTE ]

ok, so you're saying it's not useful at in this case.

[GtrHtr]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
this assumes the BB folds AA, right? cause that's, um, probably not true.

[/ QUOTE ]

It assumes playing HU against the pusher.

[/ QUOTE ]

ok, so you're saying it's not useful at in this case.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not following.

[wuwei]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
this assumes the BB folds AA, right? cause that's, um, probably not true.

[/ QUOTE ]

It assumes playing HU against the pusher.

[/ QUOTE ]

ok, so you're saying it's not useful at in this case.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure it is. Just remember there's one person left to act who only overcalls two pushes with a very big hand. Factor that into your decision...

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
this assumes the BB folds AA, right? cause that's, um, probably not true.

[/ QUOTE ]

It assumes playing HU against the pusher.

[/ QUOTE ]

ok, so you're saying it's not useful at in this case.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure it is. Just remember there's one person left to act who only overcalls two pushes with a very big hand. Factor that into your decision...

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm pretty sure you can tell sngpt to take into account an overcall range.

[wuwei]

[ QUOTE ]


i'm pretty sure you can tell sngpt to take into account an overcall range.

[/ QUOTE ]

Damn! If that's true I should pay more attention to the new stuff Eastbay is adding.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
this assumes the BB folds AA, right? cause that's, um, probably not true.

[/ QUOTE ]

It assumes playing HU against the pusher.

[/ QUOTE ]

ok, so you're saying it's not useful at in this case.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure it is. Just remember there's one person left to act who only overcalls two pushes with a very big hand. Factor that into your decision...

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm pretty sure you can tell sngpt to take into account an overcall range.

[/ QUOTE ]

ok, that would be very useful. but no one has mentioned an overcall range at all in the thread.

[microbet]

That's making sense now.

There is a lesson here, but unlike "push with any two", "spite call", "pvs", or "stop-n-go", "pay attention to your opponents" is unlikely to become the next big thing.

[golfcchs]

[ QUOTE ]
I call.

Citanul has a big enough head already. I don't think we need to call this a Citancall or anything like that. Curtains has about a million posts yelling at people for not making calls like this and not very long ago Raptor bared his soul about how he needed to make more of these calls.

Anyway, it's a good call. You probably have the best hand. You are probably going to lose this tourney if you don't call. Make that Microcall!

[/ QUOTE ]

How low does you call range go here? Is it any ace or PP?

[microbet]

Well, not being in the game and all it's not easy to say, but if he's a standard pushbot I think something on the order of
Ax,K9s+,KJ+,QJ+,22+

It is really really important to know whether he's a pushbot or not.

edit: OP didn't really say he was a pushbot, but that was part of the discussion later. Because he's pushing and not limping or something, I wouldn't be afraid to put him on being a pushbot, but if he had given a walk from the SB, I would tighten up; though A7 still might make the cut.

Also, I wouldn't put a pushbot on any two from the button. Even from the SB I don't assume ANY two unless I've seen them push trash or just seen them enough to know them.