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Scuba Chuck
12-02-2005, 06:43 AM
1)
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (4 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Hero (t1345)
BB (t1290)
UTG (t3065)
Button (t2300)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to t800</font>

2)
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (4 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Hero (t990)
UTG (t650)
Button (t5240)
SB (t1120)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to t400</font>

tigerite
12-02-2005, 06:47 AM
1) Move in. Doesn't seem too hard to me really considering it's only 100/200 and BB is only 100 below you (well I suppose 200 now with the blinds)

2) Would a call be horrible here? I dunno. Leaves you t590 and if you whiff the flop (you're getting all in if the TT is an overpair) you will still have enough to push into UTG's now BB stack of t450 profitably. I'm not sure t790 is going to make a lot of difference here to the next hand, UTG will call any two anyway, and if he beats you you're still crippled.

tigerite
12-02-2005, 06:48 AM
Oh on 2) I probably would move in on a J flop as well.. maybe even a Q but that's risky

applejuicekid
12-02-2005, 06:52 AM
These are tough.

I think I would fold both of these. I would push hand 1 if I knew the raiser was overly aggressive, but against most opponents I would fold.

Bonafone
12-02-2005, 06:53 AM
1. I'm all in here, you aren't the shortstack, but neither of you are close to be blinded out. the big stack has a pretty big range, and winning this hand gives you the chiplead.

2. This one is different because bb will most likely be all in next hand. tt is just too strong to lay down though here. callin is an option but i would probably just lean towards pushing and making things simple.

Edited because i dont know how to read a hh

Shillx
12-02-2005, 06:56 AM
Hand one is tough because the upside is so thin while the downside could be huge. Against a reasonable big stack pushing should be fine here. Also if getting the chip lead puts you in a spot to dominate the table, it might be worth it to take a -EV gamble here. If winning this pot wouldn't put me in the chip lead, I would probably fold even if I felt like shoving had some value.

I'm basically insta-shoving hand two unless the big stack has been quiet. TT plays much better against a wide range then AQo, so if he is playing well (which it doesn't appear like he is but who knows) you can make a significant step forward by shoving here. If he has any 2, it is about a 3% increase to shove here while it is only .8% in the AQ hand.

Brad

tigerite
12-02-2005, 06:57 AM
Bona, just one thing, Hero is BB in hand 2.. I am assuming the SB folded.

Sciolist
12-02-2005, 08:38 AM
The moment I saw these, I thought "yup, I'm reraising allin both times". Anyone got SNG power tools where they are to work out the ranges for that being a good/bad plan?

To be honest, I didn't even consider another course for either hand. I am assuming in both cases that the bigstack is raising with a wide range simply because he's bigstack and it's on the bubble. That's what I do if I'm him. Obviously if he's just been sitting there, there's pause for thought required, but I don't see me folding either hand.

GtrHtr
12-02-2005, 11:25 AM
Hand 1. I'll get back to you but my instinct has me folding.

Hand 2. Stop and go on a board Tigerite describes. Stop and go!!!!!

Dr_Jeckyl_00
12-02-2005, 11:40 AM
IMO...

fold hand 1 UTG raise suggests strength, stack sizes are close and villain can bust your unmade hand. Plus villain has the odds to call your all-in so he is not folding if you push. If you fold you can hopefully push next hand from button w/ 5xbb left.

push hand 2. Shorty folded and is about to bust, your hand is made, and if you fold you have 4xbb left next hand and will likely be raised, being forced to act before shorty... so if you call, shorty folds and makes the money, if you fold, shorty might call, possibly double up then your new shorty. TT is the NUTS here, IMO.

45suited
12-02-2005, 11:58 AM
1) Okay, this one is close, but I think I'd push.

2) Are you kidding me? A mini-raise from the button, we have TT in the BB and only 4 BB left? I know that there is a shorter stack, but this is insta-push territory. TT is a tremendous hand here.

kevkev60614
12-02-2005, 12:15 PM
1) It's close, but I default to folding it. Since UTG will call your push something close to 100% of the time, the problem changes. It's effectively like he's pushing, and you're calling. I've seen this situation enough on this board to think calling a pf push on the bubble with AQo is not a good idea.

2) TT is too good against button's range. Have to push.

junkmail3
12-02-2005, 12:20 PM
[ QUOTE ]
1) Move in. Doesn't seem too hard to me really considering it's only 100/200 and BB is only 100 below you (well I suppose 200 now with the blinds)

2) Would a call be horrible here? I dunno. Leaves you t590 and if you whiff the flop (you're getting all in if the TT is an overpair) you will still have enough to push into UTG's now BB stack of t450 profitably. I'm not sure t790 is going to make a lot of difference here to the next hand, UTG will call any two anyway, and if he beats you you're still crippled.

[/ QUOTE ]

This seems to be my thought as well.

Edit: I would like to contribute more but these are almost exactly my thoughts. Though I think I'd push any flop.

12-02-2005, 12:20 PM
1) Depends on UTG. If he is aggressively playing the bubble, I would definately push. If not, I would fold (and then probably push almost anything on the next hand to make up for it).

2) PUSH!!! This is absolutely automatic IMO. I wouldn't even think about it. If the big stack is slowplaying a higher pair, so be it. You already have 20% of your stack in the pot from the BB, and if you fold you will only be left with T790, which won't give you much fold equity in later hands. You would be forced to push in the next few hands, and the bigger stacks would almost definately call you down, since they would assume you are pushing almost any 2 at that point.

durron597
12-02-2005, 12:28 PM
Hand 1) Fold, it's not close, against the range 22+,A2s+,A3o+,KTs+,KJo+,QJs it's -0.9%

Hand 2) If this is from the same tournament it looks like Button is running over the table and thus probably is raising with any two cards, push. Edit: whoooooooops I had left AQ in SnGPT before running this one, yeah, it's +1.7% against his likely range, easy push /images/graemlins/smile.gif

12-02-2005, 12:29 PM
1) I'd push all in with AQo, likely blinded away shortly. Likely up against Ax.

2) Again, all in with TT. Your best chance to double up and be in a little better position for finishing above 3rd. Probably up against KQ, Ax, maybe AT.

ZeroPointMachine
12-02-2005, 12:45 PM
I'd like to see some numbers and ranges that make these close. I would not hesitate to get my chips in on either hand. Neither hand involves a short enough shortstack to change things.

ZeroPointMachine
12-02-2005, 01:17 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1) Fold, it's not close, against the range 22+,A2s+,A3o+,KTs+,KJo+,QJs it's -0.9%



[/ QUOTE ]

This seems really tight to me. Maybe I'm guilty of assuming too much aggresion from the big stack.

Sciolist
12-02-2005, 01:20 PM
Well, if the numbers say so.... I guess that's a leak for me then :]

schwza
12-02-2005, 01:36 PM
1 - i would push here. villain's range should be very wide. if it's not, folding is ok.

2 - i guess i'm the only one here, but i would fold. you're very unlikely to win this stt even if you double up. so play for 3rd and let the shorty take his chances on his bb.

schwza
12-02-2005, 02:09 PM
[ QUOTE ]
1 - i would push here. villain's range should be very wide. if it's not, folding is ok.

2 - i guess i'm the only one here, but i would fold. you're very unlikely to win this stt even if you double up. so play for 3rd and let the shorty take his chances on his bb.

[/ QUOTE ]

ugh - just looked at durron's sngpt numbers. i think the pfr is a wider range than that, but probably not by enough to make it a good push.

on the 2nd one, what is his "likely range"? i would be raising any 2 there, but we don't know villain is.

Scuba Chuck
12-02-2005, 02:30 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1) Fold, it's not close, against the range 22+,A2s+,A3o+,KTs+,KJo+,QJs it's -0.9%

[/ QUOTE ]

What's really interesting about the math results is if you change hero to BB (with BB's stack), it change this to only 0.3% positive EV.

It's amazing how little value AQ carries.

Just to further make my point, if we change the hand here from AQo to AKo, the EV from the original OP, goes from -0.9% to +0.2%. Interesting....

pineapple888
12-02-2005, 02:38 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Just to further make my point, if we change the hand here from AQo to AKo, the EV from the original OP, goes from -0.9% to +0.2%. Interesting....

[/ QUOTE ]

The more I read this forum, the more I think that appreciating just how big the difference is between AQ and AK (not just here, but in many other situations) is a critical point in a player's poker development.

If I remember right, T.J. Cloutier used to refer to AQ as a "weak ace", and there's another old-time pro who outright refused to ever play it in ring games. Extreme, but illustrative.

durron597
12-02-2005, 02:40 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Just to further make my point, if we change the hand here from AQo to AKo, the EV from the original OP, goes from -0.9% to +0.2%. Interesting....


[/ QUOTE ]

That's because there are so many king type hands in that range we have dominated.

You really don't want to go allin and have him call with K/images/graemlins/heart.gifT/images/graemlins/heart.gif when you have AQ.

Of course, that range is pretty tight, you go the next click over with SnGPT and it becomes +0.2%.

schwza
12-02-2005, 02:56 PM
[ QUOTE ]
next click over with SnGPT and it becomes +0.2%.

[/ QUOTE ]

what's that mean?

durron597
12-02-2005, 02:59 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
next click over with SnGPT and it becomes +0.2%.

[/ QUOTE ]

what's that mean?

[/ QUOTE ]

Maniac raise range. Actually, it was +0.4%, whoops (for 22+,A2+,K2+,Q2s+,Q6o+,J7s+,J9o+,T8s+,98s).

A more reasonable in between range like 22+,A2+,K5o+,K2s+,Q9o+,Q8s+,J9s+ is -0.1%.

kamrann
12-02-2005, 03:17 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just to further make my point, if we change the hand here from AQo to AKo, the EV from the original OP, goes from -0.9% to +0.2%. Interesting....


[/ QUOTE ]

That's because there are so many king type hands in that range we have dominated.

You really don't want to go allin and have him call with K/images/graemlins/heart.gifT/images/graemlins/heart.gif when you have AQ.

Of course, that range is pretty tight, you go the next click over with SnGPT and it becomes +0.2%.

[/ QUOTE ]

Someone help me out here, I'm amazed at the difference between AK and AQ in this situation. I thought the reason AQ was so bad was primarily that we're effectively calling allin as less than a 60% favourite, transferring loads of equity to the shortest stack. As such I figured AK wouldn't be much better.

What are the differences against this range originally suggested?

As opposed to being dominated by AK, we are dominating AQ.
We are about 70% against KTs, KJs, KJo, instead of about 60%, but we went the other way for QJs.
We aren't dead to QQ.

This seems almost insignificant given the likelihood of facing these few hands in a range of this size (the vast majority of the range, aces and pairs, is unaffected by AQ/AK).

Am I missing something obvious that makes AK a call rather than a certain fold?

tigerite
12-02-2005, 03:18 PM
You think he's only pushing Kings down to KJo?

Heh.

schwza
12-02-2005, 03:30 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
next click over with SnGPT and it becomes +0.2%.

[/ QUOTE ]

what's that mean?

[/ QUOTE ]

Maniac raise range. Actually, it was +0.4%, whoops (for 22+,A2+,K2+,Q2s+,Q6o+,J7s+,J9o+,T8s+,98s).

A more reasonable in between range like 22+,A2+,K5o+,K2s+,Q9o+,Q8s+,J9s+ is -0.1%.

[/ QUOTE ]

thanks. just out of curiousity, could you post the winning % for AQ against one of those ranges? no pokerstove at work /images/graemlins/frown.gif

citanul
12-02-2005, 03:32 PM
i fold hand 1 and push hand 2. for the same reasons people who say they would do those things say they would do those things. i don't believe this is all that close.

kamrann
12-02-2005, 03:39 PM
What I think he's pushing isn't relevant to what I was asking. I was just talking about the numbers relating to the range alreday given, which goes down to KJo and KTs.

To be honest though, I think in the lower buyins the range for an UTG raise in this spot isn't that much wider than what was given. I don't think most players will raise below KTo, K9s here.