Bet this river?

[soah]

Stars 2/4 6-max

Joined a table earlier. Second hand I got QQ in SB. Unknown minraises, I reraise to $34, BB calls, minraiser folds. Flop was 866. I bet $40, he called. Turn was a 6. I checked, he checked. River was something irrelevent. I bet $90, he called and showed A4s for no pair no draw.

This dude played almost every hand, usually for a minraise preflop. He loved to call, and if he couldn't call when the action got to him, then he'd bet. Usually small bets, although sometimes he'd bet bigger (and it didn't mean he had a big hand either). He once made a tiny bluff-raise against a tiny river bet after he'd called down with no pair/no draw. I've also seen him bet tiny on the flop/turn from the BB in a limped pot with T2 (no heart) on a board of AKQQ with three hearts, and then he overbet the river by about 35% when the 5 of hearts fell on the river. However, he generally was NOT a big bluffer on the river. I mean, he was certainly LAG and stupid, but he was perfectly capable of checking down a loser quite often. His ace high call also proved to not be typical for him -- he'd go to showdown with all sorts of trashy pairs, but that was the only time I can recall him calling on the end with no pair. (Also, the term LAG doesn't quite describe him right, since much of his aggression came from minraises preflop and postflop minbets. He would more accurately be described as an aggressive calling station, I think.)

So anyway, that game broke up after a while without anymore confrontations of that scale between us, and he later joined another table I was playing.

UTG folds and I raise to $14 with TT. He calls. Others fold.

Flop 665 with two clubs. I bet $20, he calls.

Turn 8. I bet $50, he calls.

River 8. $170 in the pot; we each have around $300 left. My move here?

[PeteGI]

I would throw a half pot bet and probably call if he min-raised like he is prone to doing. I'm not sure he would call much more then that, but given the previous hand you could probably squeeze 75 or so and expect a call from ace high again.

[Fnord]

$50, if he just mindlessly pushes the raise button, then it's a stupid-easy call.

[soah]

His minraises have only been preflop.

btw another hand I played against him early on at the first table... he minraised, I had switched seats so now I get to call in position with 88, a couple others tag along. Flop comes JT7 and he minbets, I call, and remarkably the other players all fold. He bets like $12 or so when a 7 comes on the turn, I still think my hand could be good and I've got 6 pretty solid outs, so I call. River is an 8 giving me a boat on a board of JT778. He checks, there's $75 in the pot and I bet $60 and pray he has something to call with. He folds.

So I don't want to give the impression that he's going to showdown 100% of the time that he gets to the river or anything.

[ QUOTE ]
I would throw a half pot bet and probably call if he min-raised like he is prone to doing.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, thats right

[Fnord]

I don't like betting more than you have to in order to freeze him. I don't like giving good implied odds to suck-out on my pair, nor to reward slow-play.

Then again I play 100NL and under-betting is so common that $50 on the river here would be a show of serious strength.

[beset7]

I'd value bet probably 60-75. If he's making some big calls let us give him the opportunity to make another one.

Check/calling in these spots is fun also but sounds like the wrong dude.

[FreakDaddy]

If that's the only hand you've seen him call with Ace high, then I just check/call here. Even against a non-thinking LAG I can't really see what hand he's calling here that you beat other then small pocket pair. I'd contemplate perhaps bettign 1/4 pot if I knew that he wouldn't try and push me off the pot with a bluff (which you said he wouldn't do), but why do that here? What hand do you see him calling with?

[soah]

If he has a five or a pocket pair he may call again on the river. But I'm not sure how much he'd call. One thing I've noticed about this guy is that he does seem to be thinking at some level... he's just really bad at it. In the hand he called with ace high, my line (to a bad player) looks pretty suspicious. I'm a total unknown, I've reraised preflop, bet weak (half pot) on the flop, and checked the turn... when I come out betting moderately big on the river, he thinks I'm full of it, and looks me up. The hand where I saw him bluff raise the river, his opponent had been betting weak throughout the hand... he picked up on the weakness and tried to make a move, but he just raised way too little and his opponent made the crying call with a marginal pair. The hand where he overbet bluffed the river was the perfect board for an overbet bluff. Unfortunately, his bet was inconsistent with his "I have nothing" bets on the flop and turn, and he got looked up by pocket fours (brilliant or stupid?).

So if I bet again on the river, he may come to the conclusion that his small pair is no good. But on the other hand, he may think that I'm bluffing this time because when I had QQ I checked the turn to him (he will probably overlook the fact that this board has multiple draws on the turn, while the QQ hand gave me a boat on the turn). Now I'm just overthinking this... it's so hard to go second- and third-level against players that are so bad...

It's also worth noting that when I reached the river, the first thing going through my mind was "I've never actually seen this guy hit a big hand, so I have no idea what he'd do if he actually has my beat." I'd have to think he would have raised me at some point, but this guy is just so bad that it's hard to say with much certainty what he has... ever.

[Malachii]

Soah, your posts always contain very detailed and well thought out reads. How many tables do you typically play at a time? Do you use any sort of HUD?

As for the hand in question, I would bet in the neighborhood of $100, folding to a raise. I'm surprised people want to bet so much smaller than $100... there's $170 in the pot and betting some ridiculously small amount might induce him to raise us w/ out a hand, which is exactly what we don't want on this board.

[soah]

Usually two tables.

[FreakDaddy]

If you're fairly certain that he would have raised with a 6 or a higher pocket pair(not knowing when to raise either of these), then a value bet of 1/2 pot is fine. It's quite narrow here that a check/call wouldn't be a mistake. I mean there are just a few hands he'll call with here 22-44, 77,99. The rest you're behind, unless he'll call again with Ace high. /images/graemlins/smile.gif I'm pretty scrupulous about value betting the river myself, but I don't think this is a mistake to check here.

What happened in the actual hand?

[beavens]

i like the 1/2 value bet on the river - calling of a small raise.

[PinkSteel]

[ QUOTE ]
it's so hard to go second- and third-level against players that are so bad...

[/ QUOTE ]

Seems like an action junkie. Not a pusher, just someone who thinks checking around is boring.

Check the river to induce a bluff. You save calling a raise if you're behind, you come out just as well if you're ahead. The only way you lose is if he were ready to try a bluff raise again, and you were ready to call it.

[DoomSlice]

I've been experimenting recently against LAGs by ridiculously underbetting the river in order to get them to raise me... and so far it has worked out pretty well. However, by the way you describe him, it doesn't seem like he'll bite for that sort of thing. On the other hand, I do want him to encourage him to call with A-high, and a 1/3 pot bet will probably convince him to do that >80% of the time.

So probably somewhere around $65 should be good.

[soah]

This never occured to me at the time, but I think a bet of around $20 would have been really sweet here. He might call that with worse hands just to see my cards for all I know... and he might make a tiny raise (to $60 or something).

[soah]

I check, he checks behind with Q7o. I love this guy.

[FreakDaddy]

[ QUOTE ]
I check, he checks behind with Q7o. I love this guy.

[/ QUOTE ]

I kick myself sometimes too when I know an opponent is really bad, and may call with let's say Ax here. But the primary reason you're asking this is because he has such a crappy hand. If you bet 1/2 pot, do you think he's calling? Probably not, so you made the correct play.

[zaphod]

[ QUOTE ]
Soah, your posts always contain very detailed and well thought out reads.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes i am also impressed by the very detailed reads you give in your posts.

As for the hand i am unsure if it is best to check to induce a bluff or bet half pot.