is poker simple?

is the game of poker as simple as it sounds?

Bet when you think you have the best hand, call when you think you have the odds and fold when you don't.

Is this really all we are doing at the lower levels?

of course reads fit in to the above statement to determine if we have the best hand, drawing hand etc


maybe this is a theory question.

anyway....I'm just curious.

[TheBlueMonster]

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is the game of poker as simple as it sounds?

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quick answer: no.
Longer answer: no, because there are soooo many more factors than the ones you listed.

[bernie]

Poker is easy.

Playing longterm winning poker isn't.

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Bet when you think you have the best hand, call when you think you have the odds and fold when you don't.

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If it were really that simple, wouldn't more people be doing it? Although, some people really do think it's that simple and have screwed up their lives because of that thinking.

Many people don't realize just how small the edge is. They'll go on a nice run early and think that's how it will always be. 'Yeah, it's easy, look how much I just made in my last 3 sessions.' Then the downswing hits and all of a sudden it's everyone else's fault. If they survive that, then the grind of it sets in. Poker has a way of weeding out those people eventually. Reducing them back to the casual, system to beat craps type players that they are.

b

[b33nz]

If it was that simple.... how would it be possible to make a living off of it? This question doesn't even need to be asked.... it's kind of an obvious answer.

It is exactly that easy. Once you figure out how to see your opponents cards, that strategy is undefeatable.

Yes, it is that easy. Easier than that even.

Please tell ALL your friends how easy of a game it is. Tell them to deposit lots and lots of money.....and to join me at the tables. Please?

[AlexHoops]

I think it is exactly that easy. Is that not just the fundamental theorem restated?

[stigmata]

At the lowest stakes it is "easy", depending on how you define easy. You have to know the value of position, and which hand are statistically playable in which positions according to the action before you & the table conditions. After the flop, you have to know how to protect your hand and how to draw correctly. If you can do these things (a short 200 page book will do) you can play winning limit poker at the lowest stakes. However, the edge is small and the variance is high. You will hardly be able to grind out a living.

Therefore you need to play mid/high stakes to earn a decent wage. But now you have the problem that there is a lot of money at stake. People like money, and you will find that the majority of people at your table have read a few poker books themselves. They also know how to protect their hands, draw to odds, the value of position, and a whole bunch of other tricks: Blind stealing/defense, semi-bluffing, when to run a bluff, how to leverage a table image, etc.

So as you move up, your edge becomes increasinly thin. Whilst table selection is important - you need a donator or two - you don't want to be giving your profits away to the better player. You have to start reaching a higher level of thinking -- what hand does my opponent have? What does he think I have? What does he think I think he has? How can I use this information to make him misplay his hand?

At the lowest stakes, poker is easy to beat in the long run with a small amount of technical knowledge. At the highest stakes, it is a hugely complex blend of maths, psychology and strategy. Like chess, I doubt that most people have the capacity or willpower to master the game at the very highest level.

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you can play winning limit poker at the lowest stakes. However, the edge is small and the variance is high.

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Is there an optimum Level of Limit game that is a compromise between "beat-a-bility" and "Profitability"???

If you were to plot "beat-a-bility" against "Profitability", would it be a straight line, through the various limits? Or is there a point where it suddenly becomes MUCH harder (for your return) if you step up?


I assume that if you are a pro (ie you survive on poker) you need to make the maths stack up and play at appropriate levels. But if you just do it part-time as a "second income" you can place yourself at a level or 2 below this and have less variance?

[POKhER]

Learning ABC poker is simple,
Passing beyond ABC is tough.

I played ABC at 0.02/.04, 0.05/.10, .25/50, .50/1, Then got to 1/2 and this is when more skill came in, tighter opponents.

Then i moved to 6max and everything comes into play it seems.

2+2 wouldn't exsist if poker was simple, Everyone would play it if it we simple.

Theres Bet, Raise, Call, Check, Fold - 3buttons(Check/Call similar as Bet/Raise) ... But whcih one to press takes alot of knowledge to get a good win rate.

When i first got here and heard 2bb/100 was a good winrate i laughed so bad assuming everyone sucked /images/graemlins/laugh.gif, Then i read a micro post about "bet the flop, Fold to raise blah" god i was thinking "These guys are wacky... or i've alot to learn" turned out to be the latter(Ok some guys are wacky /images/graemlins/laugh.gif)

I like what Phil Ivey said when interviewed at the Monte Carlo Millions:

"You can read all the books you want, but it all comes down to whether your opponent has the hand he's representing."

i think poker, particularly limit, is a longrun game of odds/probabily and taking your game to the next level when you experience "breakthroughs" or "aha" moments; the more you think about hands and situations it allows you to react quicker and eliminate simple mistakes that you would have made had you not thought about it earlier

i would agree that table selection is key, as you are only as good as your opponents you are playing against, and would add that being well capitalized is just as important - being able to play a specific limit comfortably and confidently without worrying about the actual money that's at risk

[Nomad84]

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(a short 369 page book will do)

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FYP

[obsidian]

Sure poker is easy. All you need to do is understand this (http://www.pokerpages.com/pokerinfo/rank/).

What makes people think that poker is simple is the fact I could sit down at a table with Phil Ivey, Chris Ferguson etc. and only a trained eye would be able to tell the difference.

If I played in a golf foursome with Tiger Woods, Davis Love III and Phil Mickelson, after one swing, everyone would know the amatuer.

[Fabian]

The first couple responses in this thread are awful.

Stigmata's isn't.

It's as easy as driving a car.

Poker really is that simple and for the players who are playing at the lower limits and learning I will simplify it even more. If you aren't too good at math the simple way to figure your odds is 4x your outs before the turn and 2x your outs before the river. So, if you are holding 4 to a flush after the flush, you have 9 outs or a 36% chance of catching your flush and then an 18% chance to catch it on the river card. These aren't precise, but you can use them as a basis until you really get to know the game. If you are sitting there and the pot is $15.00 and it costs you $12.00 to stay in the hand to go after your flush, you can do the simple math to see you aren't getting the odds necessary to stay in. As you progress, you will be able to bring in other factors and odds such as if you have overcards, back door hands, etc., but to the starting player, it is better to just keep it as simple as you stated until you figure out a system that is right for your type of play.

[Nomad84]

Percentages are much less practical than X:1 odds notation when playing a hand. Or at least that's the way I feel. I'd rather know that my odds are 4:1 against than know that my draw is 20% likely to come in. If I know I'm 4:1 against, it's a simple matter to call 1 bet if the pot is at least 4 bets. Also, if my hand is 2:1 against coming in by the river, I can value bet or raise if more than 2 other people are putting money in the pot. This is a bit off of the orginal topic, but it is related to the previous post.

[I am fish]

I suggest simply memorizing all the odds. It's not that hard to do. Like learning multiplication tables, but easier.

[Nomad84]

I agree. I'm just saying that memorizing them in Y outs means X:1 odds form is a lot more useful to me than memorizing (or calculating) them as percentages.