Typical CR.

[BigEndian]

Here's a fairly common CR situation. For this hand, I had been getting run over recently. The villain is loose and not especially aggressive but not passive either. Pretty much your middle of the road 40/6/1.x player.

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (9 max, 9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, BB calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, Hero...

First, do you continue with the hand.

Second, IF you do continue, what is your plan?

- Jim

[hobbsmann]

I absolutely continue with this hand due to how draw heavy the board is. I think the best approach is probably to call the flop c/r and raise the turn for a free showdown.

[istewart]

[ QUOTE ]
I absolutely continue with this hand due to how draw heavy the board is. I think the best approach is probably to call the flop c/r and raise the turn for a free showdown.

[/ QUOTE ]

Would you just call a turn 9 if you continued with this plan in mind?

[hobbsmann]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I absolutely continue with this hand due to how draw heavy the board is. I think the best approach is probably to call the flop c/r and raise the turn for a free showdown.

[/ QUOTE ]

Would you just call a turn 9 if you continued with this plan in mind?

[/ QUOTE ]
I would be more worried with a 7,Q or a /images/graemlins/heart.gif and would probably continue with the turn raise if a 9 peeled off even though we would now have to call a 3-bet.

[foldem]

I like three betting the flop, betting the turn and checking behind on the river. It's obviously safe to fold if he check raises the turn.

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
I absolutely continue with this hand due to how draw heavy the board is. I think the best approach is probably to call the flop c/r and raise the turn for a free showdown.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is a good standard line. I also find that I fold less than others because I want to see a showdown so I can play similar spots against the BB better, so here I might just call/call/call.

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I absolutely continue with this hand due to how draw heavy the board is. I think the best approach is probably to call the flop c/r and raise the turn for a free showdown.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is a good standard line. I also find that I fold less than others because I want to see a showdown so I can play similar spots against the BB better, so here I might just call/call/call.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm slow to understand. I think what you're saying is that you'll pay off here to see his cards in order to understand how to play against him in further rounds. I like that better.

I've been incorporating more and more lines into my play that don't involve folding (e.g. raising the turn and folding to a 3 bet). Especially in spots like this. Sometimes it resembles a calling station...but whatever.

[hobbsmann]

QT,

I'm starting to work on this as well and the value of just showing down against a lot of these over aggroish TAGs at the mid limits is often more important than trying to extract max value. Said another way, these people can/will 3-bet with hands you are beating so setting yourself up to fold the best hand isn't good. At the lower limits you can count on eliciting honest responses from people on the bigger streets and thus can fold with confidence to a 3-bet, but against a quasi-unknown at 10/20+ it is sometimes better to forego some value and just call down (also the call/call lines gets the same bets in as a free showdown raise in this case).

[BigEndian]

If the goal is a cheap showdown, how about 3-betting the flop and checking the turn?

- Jim

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
If the goal is a cheap showdown, how about 3-betting the flop and checking the turn?

- Jim

[/ QUOTE ]

I like that a lot less if he's willing to 4-bet a draw, and a lot of overaggros learn that trick first.

[foldem]

checking the turn is bad because you are only ahead if he has a draw. you need to bet the turn to protect your hands the times you are ahead.

[BigEndian]

[ QUOTE ]
checking the turn is good because you are only ahead if he has a draw. you need to check the turn to not give action on your hands the times you are behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't fix it so much as show that what you provided wasn't really a strong argument. The crux is, of course, how often am I ahead?

- Jim

[foldem]

[ QUOTE ]
The crux is, of course, how often am I ahead?


[/ QUOTE ]

That should be a read based decision. If your opponent is unlikely to check raise a draw then its a fold on the flop. I didnt do the math but I would estimate that you need to be ahead around 40% of the time to make continuing profitable

[einbert]

I call down UI.