A good example of a casual mistake.

[BigEndian]

Regardless of how this hand turned out, I think my turn bet is horrible. Who's with me?

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (9 max, 10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG+2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP3 calls, CO calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB folds, UTG+2 calls, MP3 calls, CO folds.

Turn: (4 BB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>...

- Jim

[CardSharpCook]

I am not. Reasonable chnace of best hand with 6 outs to a non-flush str8 + 9 outs to 3rd or 4th nut flush.

[BigEndian]

Don't you think I get raised on this turn most of the time and 3-bet sometimes? And all my outs are to crappy made hands.

- Jim

[private joker]

Excellent post. At first glance this looks like a standard turn bet, one most of us would make. But you DO get raised a lot, and giving a free card is not a disaster at all. I like a check here.

But what if you check, UTG+2 bets, and MP3 raises? Don't you have to cold-call?

[Fnord]

[ QUOTE ]

But what if you check, UTG+2 bets, and MP3 raises? Don't you have to cold-call?

[/ QUOTE ]

Given the pot size, I think we can just let this one go.

[private joker]

[ QUOTE ]


Given the pot size, I think we can just let this one go.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're right. I'd forgotten we could be drawing dead to a made flush.

[ResidentParanoid]

There are many correct calls to be made by your opponents here.

You will be raised often and be in a difficult position.

Against quality opposition, I probably check it.

Against weak/loose players, I think a bet is better. You should be willing to fold to a raise.

[lil feller]

Against most players in the party 15 anybody with any draw that got there raises on the flop. I'd have a really tough time seeing KJ or a a flush draw being in the mix.

That said, I also think that a better Q raises PF, or raises on the flop. If you're behind here, is probably to something like T9. I would assume that a 7 is good for sure (unless its a spade), a Q probably helps you and an 8 might. I like the bet, and I call a raise, and make my river decision based on the raiser and the river card.

lf

Yes, a turn bet is no good. With 4 opponents to the turn you hand is no longer any good. Check and see what happens; I would fold to a single bet.

[newhizzle]

im usually betting this turn almost evey time, but there are compelling reasons in this thread for me to start checking it against several reasonably competent opponents

it seems that against this many guys and this board, the 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif completes many possible draws or 2-pair type hands and its likely it just hit someone if they are not the type to peel the flop with anything and a free card is not horrible here

Actually, I think the best play is to check-fold the flop.
You will never win it right here with a bet.
The next card will most likely help someone else much more than it helps you.
The river will help someone much more than it helps you most likely.
Even if you happen to be ahead here, which is unlikely, you are going to have to show the best hand at the river to win the pot. The chances of your week queen holding up as the best hand are abysmal.
Save your money for a better spot; check fold the flop and without a doubt fold on the turn with that horrible card showing itself.

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
im usually betting this turn almost evey time, but there are compelling reasons in this thread for me to start checking it against several reasonably competent opponents

it seems that against this many guys and this board, the 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif completes many possible draws or 2-pair type hands and its likely it just hit someone if they are not the type to peel the flop with anything and a free card is not horrible here

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's say you're MP3 there with T9s hearts. Are you raising the turn?

[newhizzle]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
im usually betting this turn almost evey time, but there are compelling reasons in this thread for me to start checking it against several reasonably competent opponents

it seems that against this many guys and this board, the 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif completes many possible draws or 2-pair type hands and its likely it just hit someone if they are not the type to peel the flop with anything and a free card is not horrible here

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's say you're MP3 there with T9s hearts. Are you raising the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

being last to act with noone raising yet, probably

it would be good to charge any single spade to see the river, and most people are betting a bare queen in heros spot, im not sure what id do if someone 3-bets though, its probably a fold since we are not getting odds to draw to our 4 outer, also im not sure what to put UTG+2 on just yet if he calls, maybe just a piece, buti think we are ahead with 2 pair most of the time, hero is probably the one we need to worry about if UTG+2 dosent raise

[CardSharpCook]

Stop being silly, guys. Someone actually suggested check/fold?!??!? We have no info about the other hands out there. AJ is still possible, so are a lot of donk hands played by donks that believe you should never fold to a flop bet. You've got top pair. Top pair is goot. Bet.

[I.Rowboat]

I don't think this approach is necessarily wrong, but a lot depends on the remaining players.

I would probably take a different line, which is to check the flop with the intent of c/r when it comes back around. Our Q may be dominated, but we do have outs, and this will almost certainly clear the slop and get us HU with the original bettor...and if it doesn't, e.g., if we're three or more to the turn, then we know we're very likely against a FD, OESD, and/or better Q, and can play the turn accordingly. In short, I think the extra SB on the flop makes it a lot easier to play the later streets.

[ QUOTE ]
Stop being silly, guys. Someone actually suggested check/fold?!??!? We have no info about the other hands out there. AJ is still possible, so are a lot of donk hands played by donks that believe you should never fold to a flop bet. You've got top pair. Top pair is goot. Bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, it is possible for ONE of your opponents to hold this hand and to call a flop bet with it. What do the other two hold???
In order for four people to call the flop they must like something about their hands. This means either they have top pair, and it's better than yours, or they are drawing. The 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif completes so many draws it's not worth losing multiple bets to find out that one of your four opponents, at least, has you beat. If you do not have a loser now you very well could after the river. You limped with this shaky hand hoping to flop top pair with a non-threatening board. You got halfway there; you have top pair but the board is super draw-heavy. The pot is not large--let this one go. This turn card makes a fold right unless the pot is heads-up. REMEMBER YOU HAVE MULTIPLE OPPONENTS!

[CardSharpCook]

[ QUOTE ]

In order for four people to call the flop they must like something about their hands. This means either they have top pair, and it's better than yours, or they are drawing.

[/ QUOTE ]

This just isn't true. I mean, of course, if they don't have a better hand then yours then they are, by definition, drawing. But that doesn't mean we should let them draw for cheap. Personally, I think this flop was misplayed. A nice check raise can help us find out where we are at. But we made our mess, now we need to get out of it the best we can. Letting 3 hands draw to unknown outs that the might very well give up on is rediculous. You can't just let go of TP for no reason. You have no reason to believe anyone has a better hand or has hit a draw. In fact, most flush draws raise the flop. Nearly all hands that had you beat on the flop raise the flop. True, the 9 could have completed some donks str8 draw or given someone else 2 pair, but you have no reason to stop bettin yet. This is just a scary card. Not a particularily scary card for us, as it gives us so many possible outs. Again, this flop was, IMO, misplayed. If you are gonna give up on TP on the flop, fine. But we've taken a line and until our opponents give us reason to believe that our hand is no good, keep betting. If you are unaware that players will call with no pair, no draw on the flop, then you haven't been playing limit for very long.

[DeeJ]

With so many players in I'd try to check-raise the flop here to drive out as many as I could for 2 cold. Flush draws ain't going nowhere, but straight draws might go away as might middle pairs who want to catch on the turn. This is a good place for a weaky-weak draw c-r on the flop. If you get reraised you can probably see the turn cheap and fold unimproved. So I don't really like the flop bet. A s it is you got 2 folders which is goot. on the turn it's worth betting.

[CardSharpCook]

[ QUOTE ]
With so many players in I'd try to check-raise the flop here to drive out as many as I could for 2 cold. Flush draws ain't going nowhere, but straight draws might go away as might middle pairs who want to catch on the turn. This is a good place for a weaky-weak draw c-r on the flop. If you get reraised you can probably see the turn cheap and fold unimproved. So I don't really like the flop bet. A s it is you got 2 folders which is goot. on the turn it's worth betting.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactamundo.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

In order for four people to call the flop they must like something about their hands. This means either they have top pair, and it's better than yours, or they are drawing.

[/ QUOTE ]

This just isn't true. I mean, of course, if they don't have a better hand then yours then they are, by definition, drawing. But that doesn't mean we should let them draw for cheap. Personally, I think this flop was misplayed. A nice check raise can help us find out where we are at. But we made our mess, now we need to get out of it the best we can. Letting 3 hands draw to unknown outs that the might very well give up on is rediculous. You can't just let go of TP for no reason. You have no reason to believe anyone has a better hand or has hit a draw. In fact, most flush draws raise the flop. Nearly all hands that had you beat on the flop raise the flop. True, the 9 could have completed some donks str8 draw or given someone else 2 pair, but you have no reason to stop bettin yet. This is just a scary card. Not a particularily scary card for us, as it gives us so many possible outs. Again, this flop was, IMO, misplayed. If you are gonna give up on TP on the flop, fine. But we've taken a line and until our opponents give us reason to believe that our hand is no good, keep betting. If you are unaware that players will call with no pair, no draw on the flop, then you haven't been playing limit for very long.

[/ QUOTE ]

With all due respect I do not feel that ALL of your opponents would call this flop with nothing at all. It is simply not true that you will be raised by a flush draw or any draw for this matter. Why would someone on the better's left raise the flop and thin the field??? He would want to see the next two cards cheaply and leave as many hands in with him as possible to boost his pot odds. Assuming that someone on a good draw would raise the flop goes too far. I do feel that if this were a heads-up situation some aggression here would be warrented and you should lead again to find out where you are. This situation however, is quite different. You are not letting you hand go for no reason. The reason you are letting go of it is because there is a large field, you hand is situationally weak, the pot is not large. I argue that this card does NOT give us many possible outs; often it gives us just one. Just because we put ourselves in a poor situation by our flop play does not mean that we should continue; a saved big bet or two is worth the same no matter the action on the flop.

Yes, we did make a mess of the flop by not folding there and the way to get out of it is very simple--fold.

[ QUOTE ]
With so many players in I'd try to check-raise the flop here to drive out as many as I could for 2 cold. Flush draws ain't going nowhere, but straight draws might go away as might middle pairs who want to catch on the turn. This is a good place for a weaky-weak draw c-r on the flop. If you get reraised you can probably see the turn cheap and fold unimproved. So I don't really like the flop bet. A s it is you got 2 folders which is goot. on the turn it's worth betting.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not bad reasoning but there is still the problem of the large field, which you seek to thin with the CR, and the relatively small pot. A flop check is the way to go for sure and if the bet comes from late position then you can try to thin the field if you decide to continue with this hand. If the bet comes from your left a check-fold is better. But at any rate check the flop and see what shakes out.