Another my take on God post . . .

[J. Stew]

Society rewards different qualities than that which it takes to reach your own center. Society rewards winning, beating someone, one-upping them, proving that you’re worthy. This creates the idea in your head that in order to be good yourself, that you have to be comparatively better than someone else in something. If you physically feel good when you beat someone, outwit someone, trick someone, do anything better than someone, then you are adhering to this idea that your self-worth is tied with this sort of discrimination. It is this discrimination that you are unknowingly or ignorantly holding onto as truth, that is acting as a barrier to being the Self that lies behind the ego and which is the basic awareness in the emptiness that you are. Society rewards discrimination, making ‘good’ choices, outsmarting someone, and winning. We make money that way and it tricks our minds into replicating the same thought process over and over. This is the rat race of the mind. It’s the same mind-set that fish have at the poker table. They think, well maybe this time I’ll catch that miracle card so they keep fishing and they end up losing.

The way out of the mental rat race is to 1. know what you’re looking for, which is the Self that is the awareness in the emptiness, which is the Self that lies behind the discursive mind or ego-mind, and 2. understand how to get there, which is what religion is used for. Religion just points the way, you have to actually sit there and realize that you are nothing. Then you realize that out of that nothingness, you have this basic awareness that just sees, that doesn’t discriminate. The ego discriminates, but you are really nothing. Once that fact is realized, then your ego realigns with this center which is your Self, which is the basic awareness that we call God. When the realization that you are nothing but something occurs, the ego dissipates and a more pure personality reemerges. This is why adrenaline junkies are fun to be around. They are constantly addressing their fears and crushing them, which is the same as dissipating the ego because the ego is made up of all the fears and worldly desires that we have. Through being this Self that is basic, that everyone is, there is the meaning that religious people talk about. That’s why they seem kooky. They’re talking about this great thing but it’s paradoxical. To see it, you have to go from complex thinking, which we all do here, to simple thinking, to no-mind. When there is no-mind, or no ego-mind, what is there? Nothing but the present moment. In the present moment this basic awareness sees without discrimination. It sees truth insofar as the ego-mind doesn’t interrupt and create some bias, some dual way of thinking about things. This basic awareness sees truth when the discriminatory mind isn’t putting some ‘spin’ on things. As one remains clearly present, in the present moment, the human experience evolves from a grasping/fearful position to an experience? of flow with what is naturally going on in the present moment. And that is the trip, the journey, the path of God. Holla, Stew

[hmkpoker]

Cool post.

There is an excellent theroretical construct that the psychological community usually acknowledges (developed my lots of people, especially Erikson) that a human being starts off extremely selfish, and as we grow, we become increasingly aware of a vaster social network, and become more focused on helping others. Our altruism develops.

We enter the world as infants unaware of the world's existence when we close our eyes...we become brats and bullies, cruel and uncaring toward other kids throughout middle school...we demand respect and worship from the world as teenagers...we grow to lust and covet beautiful people, shiny watches and booming careers as young adults...then we learn to love and be loved by others, we marry, have children and devote ourselves to them...we grow fulfilled and content with our impact on the world and want to help others experience the mental place we've gotten to.

Each step depends on the step before it, though. My father is an excellent example; in his late twenties, his law practice boomed and he flaunted his success. Now about to retire, I've asked if he's going to take the money and just travel and enjoy life. Surprisingly, he wants to go back to school and get certified to help people with their emotional and financial troubles. That's how he enjoys life now. However, he understands my ambitious greed as a twenty-two year old, and knows that it's a phase I have to live through before I can get to where he is. (Remember, Buddha lived it up before he was able to give it up /images/graemlins/wink.gif)

As for being "rewarded" for vanity, that's not society's fault. We are rewarded for good looks and success, but we are also rewarded for kindness. I think a lot of people fail to see that most people like a kind, giving person. (Personally I can't stand adrenaline junkies. The reason I play online more than B&M is because I hate the competitive, narcissistic company of other poker players. Ugh.)




Now, I do see what you are saying about religion helping us get to that beautiful, self-less place. I think, though, that this is really loaded. I think it helps some people more than others, and I think most people aren't ready for religion. I used to think Buddhism was the way to happiness, but I found out that it didn't satisfy me like money, sex and drugs did. That's an important part of my ego development, and I need it before I can move on. Buddhism is too "old" for me. It's a good strategy for the late game, but not the early game. So, I think, is most religion.

As for the way out of the "mental rat race," I've got three words:

Love Saves the Day /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[J. Stew]

Yeah I hear ya, I'm 25 so 22 isn't so far back fer me. Enjoying life and all that comes with it, ups and downs is basically what Buddism points to . . . sun-faced Buddha, moon-faced Buddha, still a Buddha. It doesn't take a lifetime of indulgence to discover, but hey, the 22 y/o me prolly woulda called the 25 y/o me a pooooosie so I'm not preaching ta nobody.

-Stew

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It sees truth insofar as the ego-mind doesn’t interrupt and create some bias, some dual way of thinking about things.

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I like this. Just wanted to point out that a lot of religions are contrary to this, and actually encourage a dualistic world view. Black & white thinking. Christianity is a big one.

[J. Stew]

But loving your neighbor, don't do bad sh*t, is a result of acting from the intrinsic basic awareness no? Isn't it just that the manifestations of acting from source, rather than the source itself that gets taken as truth in Christianity? I haven't read most of the Bible but it seems to point towards something like, be yourself, such as "the church of God is inside you". I see what you mean though, I'm thinking that the Bible just gets misinterpreted.

-Stew

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But loving your neighbor, don't do bad sh*t, is a result of acting from the intrinsic basic awareness no? Isn't it just that the manifestations of acting from source, rather than the source itself that gets taken as truth in Christianity? I haven't read most of the Bible but it seems to point towards something like, be yourself, such as "the church of God is inside you". I see what you mean though, I'm thinking that the Bible just gets misinterpreted.

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The Bible can be interpreted mystically as you mention, but most denominations don't. It's pretty Black & White mentality. Just read NotReady's posts. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

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But loving your neighbor, don't do bad sh*t, is a result of acting from the intrinsic basic awareness no? Isn't it just that the manifestations of acting from source, rather than the source itself that gets taken as truth in Christianity? I haven't read most of the Bible but it seems to point towards something like, be yourself, such as "the church of God is inside you". I see what you mean though, I'm thinking that the Bible just gets misinterpreted.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is right on. (For the record, I am 22 and a cross-wearing go-to-church-every-sunday christian). J. Stew, the way you think about God is very close to the way I think about God (and the way we talk about God in my UCC church). I think it is also very close to the God revealed by the teachings of Jesus.

I never know what to say when people say:
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I like this. Just wanted to point out that a lot of religions are contrary to this, and actually encourage a dualistic world view. Black & white thinking. Christianity is a big one.


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I feel the need to defend christianty, but Kip is clearly calling out NotReady's version rather than mine. Oh, I think I just answered my own question. I need to give up on debating with non-christians and focus on debating with christians. It’s futile to debate with non-christians about christianty because they are (rightly) more interested in talking about the common form. A (potentially) more productive discussion would be in debating with other christians why they favor their interpretations.

Towards that end, does anyone know why most christians have somehow forgotten or overlooked the fact that the gospels were written by human beings between (roughly) 30 and 70 years after Jesus's death, and that these humans had a particluar motive of sharing what is was like to experience his ministry. What is the basis for interpreting any of it literally, rather than mystically?

[J. Stew]

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I need to give up on debating with non-christians and focus on debating with christians. It’s futile to debate with non-christians about christianty because they are (rightly) more interested in talking about the common form.

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I need to give up on debating. . . It’s futile to debate. . .

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I need to give up. . . It's futile.

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. . . /images/graemlins/grin.gif

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I never know what to say when people say:
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I like this. Just wanted to point out that a lot of religions are contrary to this, and actually encourage a dualistic world view. Black & white thinking. Christianity is a big one.


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I feel the need to defend christianty, but Kip is clearly calling out NotReady's version rather than mine.

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Exactly. My later post clarified:

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The Bible can be interpreted mystically as you mention, but most denominations don't. It's pretty Black & White mentality. Just read NotReady's posts.

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I should try to be careful and not lump all sects of Christianity into the same boat. Not sure about UCC, but I do know of some denominations that have a more liberal and less black/white interpretation of the Bible. These people are more rational than the more Fundamentalist denominations.

The most rational denomination I've seen is the Unitarian-Universalist denomination. They are so rational, that a lot of other denominations don't consider them to be Christians. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[hmkpoker]

Atheists want to disprove Christianity to Christians. There is no question about it.

And there is a good reason why.

Christianity (I am referring to NotReady's fundamentalism here, you seem cool /images/graemlins/smile.gif) encourages thinking that is circular, accepting, unquestioning, submissive, and obedient. NotReady, in a recent response to KipBond, said the following:

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I have a friend who swears that foosball is of the devil. He thinks this because his mom told him that God said it is. He believes his mom whole-heartedly, and thinks that she could not be wrong. I try to reason with him and explain that foosball is just a game, and that many Christians and other religious folks play foosball and it doesn't seem to be bad at all. He just keeps saying that "foosball is of the devil" and that people who play it are under satan's control. His mom can't be wrong, he says, because she's never been wrong before, and he trusts her 100%.

What would you say to my friend? Do you think he is being rational? Why or why not?

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It makes a difference whether or not he is under his parents' authority. If he is, he shouldn't play the game in obedience to them. That doesn't mean they are higher than God but that the Bible says children should obey their parents. If they tell him to do something that contradicts God's Word then I believe he doesn't have to obey, otherwise he should.

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I find this not only stupid, but TERRIFYING. Mark 12:17 teaches us to "Give to Caesar what is his," suggesting that we should obey the governing body. With this kind of thinking, it becomes correct to support whatever a ruling body instructs without question. (Look at the War on Terror and the War on Drugs supporters!) And there are TONS of them.

This is how Big Brother comes to exist.

Their dogmatic stupidity writes the checks that fuel wars, halts scientific progress, and imposes unnecessary social regulations. They refuse to see other sides, or acknowledge that they might be wrong about something. Faith is a virtue, and that which is not from faith is sin...which is well and good, only if what you have faith in is correct, and they do not bother to make that step.

[Double Down]

This thread is hitting close to home on some philosophies that I have been discovering lately. Y'all may want to check out a book called "The Disappearance of the Universe: A Course in Miracles" by Gary Renard. It's very much what you are saying, J Stew, and it is also a lot about how Jesus was pretty much saying this too. He wanted us to be like him, not worship him.

[r3vbr]

Wow I read OP's post and didn't mind reading replies.

All I have to say is: DAMN HIPPIES!
hate hippie-talk /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[J. Stew]

heeeee haaaawwwwww

[hmkpoker]

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Wow I read OP's post and didn't mind reading replies.

All I have to say is: DAMN HIPPIES!
hate hippie-talk /images/graemlins/frown.gif

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1) I don't know what this has to do with hippie talk

2) and either way, hippies have a lot more fun /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[imported_luckyme]

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What is the basis for interpreting any of it literally, rather than mystically?

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I was going to tease you about "interpreting...it literally" but I'll just suggest if one is going to take the mystical approach to it, why do you need it? If 100 people come up with 100 'messages' from the same text isn't it obvious that the message isn't in the text but in the person?

Realizing that, we can see the similarity to the concept that we take our morals to our religion not the other way around. ( partly because we choose our religion).

Depending on how much validity you give to the above, it's understandable that some people view religion as a swaddling cloth around various existing needs, desires and viewpoints. On this aspect, it's not so much whether religion is good or bad, just that it is unnecessary.

[J. Stew]

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just that it is unnecessary.

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Yeah but if Joe schmoe grows up his whole life adhering to the values that poop from the concepts of society that he has in his head, which one could argue are not mostly not deeply fulfilling i.e. greed for power, blah etc., and then at some point he notices he's living some mechanical existence as a by-product of the concepts in his head, then religion can help point the way back to finding the thing inside of him, or point the way back to his Self. Religion sux when people read the thousand pages of chatter about something and take the chatter to be truth rather than the thing that wrote the chatter. So I think religion is good when it is used as a tool to figure out that you already know everything, are already complete, in a spiritual sense that is.

[imported_luckyme]

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So I think religion is good when it is used as a tool to figure out that you already know everything, are already complete, in a spiritual sense that is.

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It may act in the same way as breaking both your legs skiing and having to spend a lot of time looking up quietly at a hospital ceiling. That doesn't necessarily qualify the breaking of legs as 'good'.
If a run-in with religion acts as a whack on the side of the head, or a couple mugs of brandy and a good cigar in that it makes you more aware of a level of things you value that are often shoved below the surface then it served a useful purpose for you.

We may be saying the similar things, I'm just not willing to credit broken legs, good cigars or a taste of religion with any inherent value. All of them can and usually do have outcomes that range from sucky to frigging awful.

[J. Stew]

Yeah, to realize that religion is bullsht is to realize the thing that religion was pointing to in the first place. So you use religion, and then you crap on religion, but you crap lovingly because you see that not everyone knows to crap on religion. But if you crap on religion and don't know what you're crapping on or don't know the thing that religion points to, then it's ego-confusion crapping, not True crapping. This is contingent on someone going away from their original Self tho, cause if you never get away from that which you already are, there's no confusion. But how could one really do that, live on an island? We all want to see what indulgence is about, and then we realize that's not ultimately meaningful, so we try to find meaning in religion, then we see religion is bull, and we accept things exactly how they are and ultimately find Truth in that.

But I agree, the thing that causes someone to become aware of themselves is not important, theoretically, just like religion is not important once you know what religion points to. But if you ask someone who had a near-death experience, they'll prolly say they realized something that would be very difficult to realize without the shock of almost dying. Shock is good cause we're robots sometimes.

[DougShrapnel]

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Yeah, to realize that religion is bullsht is to realize the thing that religion was pointing to in the first place.

[/ QUOTE ] The post was spot on. But what exactly is religion pointing to?

[purnell]

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He wanted us to be like him, not worship him

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nh, sir.

[J. Stew]

When you realize that you are already the Self that religion is pointing to, you see that the point of religion is to throw yourself back upon yourself. Not outside you, but the thing that you already are. And the thing that you already are is the awareness that sees your thoughts and emotions rise and dissipate in your mentality. Like if you sit for a minute and just observe the thoughts swimming in your head. What is that which observes the thoughts without commentating on them? The basic conciousness or awareness. It seems simple but because our minds get conditioned over time to discriminate between good and bad, we believe that our thoughts are what we are, when really we are the awareness from which the thoughts/emotions manifest. An example of automatic discrimination would be like if you're at a Lakers game, and you like the Lakers, and they score and you jump up out your seat and yell "I love Kobe" (which would be hard to believe, but anyways). Your action, jumping and yelling, was caused by some discrimination of the mind saying "Good! I'm excited." There's nothing wrong with getting excited, but the problem is that we go through life on that auto-pilot without knowing we're on auto-pilot. Seeing that you are not your thoughts, but some basic awareness from which the thoughts/emotions emerge puts a different spin on things, which is to say it puts no spin on things, or puts no bias on things. Things are how they are, your basic awareness doesn't discriminate, the ego-mind does, but when the realization occurs that the thoughts are just a manifestation from this basic awareness, that the basic awareness is really all that is there, then the ego-mind/thinking-mind sort of lines up with this inner Truth that is the God that is inherent in everyone. When that happens, as I said in the O.P. a more 'divine personality', if you could call it that, emerges and you feel as though you are being more of who you really are, which is to say you are just being this awareness that you already are but which you forgot that you were because you indulged in egoistic fears and desires and got lost in the repetitious conditioning of the mind's chatter, the auto-pilot thing. Hope that helps. -Stew