can anyone determine if this game would be beatable?

Ante style game, players must ante up before they are dealt a hand. There is no betting other than the antes

Each play is dealt 4 hole cards, they must select only two of these hole cards and muck the other two. Then 5 community cards are dealt and the best 5 card hand wins.

Is it possible to do better than break even at this game in the long run?

What would be better basic strategy for this type of game? Playing low cards on the assumption most of your opps are going to be playing high cards betting your chances to at least pair? Playing high cards? Suited connectors? Pocket pairs?

[LetYouDown]

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Is it possible to do better than break even at this game in the long run?

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Short answer - sure. Short answer - depends on your opponents. If everyone plays optimally, no. For your strategy question, download pokerstove and play with hand ranges and their equity against random hands to get an idea of what might be best in multi-way pots. The number of opponents is probably something to factor in as well.

[college kid]

Sure. Just get a chart of the ranking of every possible hand, multiway. Then pick the best two of the four--though you might actually need a computer to tell you what to pick, since it would occasionally change. But if you just go to the wizard of odds and print out the multiway hand ranking chart, you'll probably be playing bette rthan your opponents, which means you have an edge. Personally, I'd rather gas myself and die horribly and painfully if it was the only other choice besides playing that game, but yes, the game is beatable given clueless opponents.

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Is it possible to do better than break even at this game in the long run?

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Of course not.

[soko]

If your opponents had half a brain this game would be impossible to do better than break even.

If you hand lacks any pair, pick the 2 highest ranked cards

while suitedness and connectedness adds value to a hand, it never adds more value than high card strength, there are no implied odds which only makes this statement more true.

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If your opponents had half a brain this game would be impossible to do better than break even.

If you hand lacks any pair, pick the 2 highest ranked cards

while suitedness and connectedness adds value to a hand, it never adds more value than high card strength, there are no implied odds which only makes this statement more true.

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It's not quite that trivial; it's better to take the AK than the pair with a hand like:
A /images/graemlins/spade.gif K /images/graemlins/spade.gif 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

The best way to beat this game is to collect the rake. And collect a dollar for the jackpot.

This game's more complicated than you guys realize. Optimal play involves randomization.

Of course, your ability to win a game against human opponents depends on your opponent. I think the short answer is yes because you're unlikely to get opponents who play optimally.

[mr_whomp]

There is no need to randomize your play. All the betting is done before you receive your cards, there is no chance of making an opponent fold. Your only advantage in this game is in arranging your two card hand more optimally than your opponent.

[WhiteWolf]

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There is no need to randomize your play. All the betting is done before you receive your cards, there is no chance of making an opponent fold. Your only advantage in this game is in arranging your two card hand more optimally than your opponent.

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Theoretically there can be a rock-paper-scissors component to this game (see below), where your best hand selection depends on what hand your opponent selects, and his best hand selection depends on what you select. You could then enter into a guessing game with your opponent. Multi-level thinking and game-theoretic optimal play via randomization would then come into play.

However, my gut feeling is that this effect would be very small, and only really apply in heads-up situations. Multiway optimal play would almost certainly be very mechanical: All possible hands would have an absolute ranking, and you would just have to memorize the ranking chart and pick the appropriate hand. Your only edge would come from players who did a worse job of memorizing the optimal rankings of the hands. Once again, this is only a gut feeling and not based on any analysis or simulation.

PS: Here's the rock-paper-scissors hold'em situation: You can pick one preflop hand from A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, or J/images/graemlins/spade.gif T/images/graemlins/spade.gif. I'll then pick one of the remaining two and we'll deal out a hold'em hand. No matter what you pick, I'll have the edge on you:

You pick A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, I'll pick 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif
pokenum -h 5d 5h - ad kh
Holdem Hi: 1712304 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
5d 5h 923864 53.95 779367 45.52 9073 0.53 0.542
Ad Kh 779367 45.52 923864 53.95 9073 0.53 0.458

You pick 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, I'll pick J/images/graemlins/spade.gif T/images/graemlins/spade.gif
pokenum -h js ts - 5d 5h
Holdem Hi: 1712304 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Js Ts 891897 52.09 807701 47.17 12706 0.74 0.525
5d 5h 807701 47.17 891897 52.09 12706 0.74 0.475

You pick J/images/graemlins/spade.gif T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, I'll pick A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif K/images/graemlins/heart.gif
pokenum -h ad kh - js ts
Holdem Hi: 1712304 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ad Kh 1003559 58.61 701504 40.97 7241 0.42 0.588
Js Ts 701504 40.97 1003559 58.61 7241 0.42 0.412

I totally agree with your analysis, @WhiteWolf. Very nice posting.

However, in your example I pick A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif and 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif and I have the edge. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

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There is no need to randomize your play. All the betting is done before you receive your cards, there is no chance of making an opponent fold. Your only advantage in this game is in arranging your two card hand more optimally than your opponent.

[/ QUOTE ]

Theoretically there can be a rock-paper-scissors component to this game (see below), where your best hand selection depends on what hand your opponent selects, and his best hand selection depends on what you select. You could then enter into a guessing game with your opponent. Multi-level thinking and game-theoretic optimal play via randomization would then come into play.

However, my gut feeling is that this effect would be very small, and only really apply in heads-up situations. Multiway optimal play would almost certainly be very mechanical: All possible hands would have an absolute ranking, and you would just have to memorize the ranking chart and pick the appropriate hand. Your only edge would come from players who did a worse job of memorizing the optimal rankings of the hands. Once again, this is only a gut feeling and not based on any analysis or simulation.

PS: Here's the rock-paper-scissors hold'em situation: You can pick one preflop hand from A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, or J/images/graemlins/spade.gif T/images/graemlins/spade.gif. I'll then pick one of the remaining two and we'll deal out a hold'em hand. No matter what you pick, I'll have the edge on you:

You pick A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, I'll pick 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif
pokenum -h 5d 5h - ad kh
Holdem Hi: 1712304 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
5d 5h 923864 53.95 779367 45.52 9073 0.53 0.542
Ad Kh 779367 45.52 923864 53.95 9073 0.53 0.458

You pick 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, I'll pick J/images/graemlins/spade.gif T/images/graemlins/spade.gif
pokenum -h js ts - 5d 5h
Holdem Hi: 1712304 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Js Ts 891897 52.09 807701 47.17 12706 0.74 0.525
5d 5h 807701 47.17 891897 52.09 12706 0.74 0.475

You pick J/images/graemlins/spade.gif T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, I'll pick A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif K/images/graemlins/heart.gif
pokenum -h ad kh - js ts
Holdem Hi: 1712304 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ad Kh 1003559 58.61 701504 40.97 7241 0.42 0.588
Js Ts 701504 40.97 1003559 58.61 7241 0.42 0.412

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Thanks for clarifying my reasoning. Your rock-paper-scissors analogy makes it very clear.

However, you're definitely wrong that this effect only exists HU. In fact, it barely exists HU, as shown by your needing to find a very specific example--there aren't many. Multiway, this effect exists much more.