River Raise ??

Live 4/8, I am in the small blind with A /images/graemlins/heart.gifK /images/graemlins/club.gif, the table folds around to the button who limps in, I raise, the big blind folds and the button calls. Heads up to the flop. Let me give details for this player before I go further. I had played with this player several times before and he was pretty loose and very passive. He had limped on the button in similar instances 3 or 4 times earlier in this session and showed down hands that probably should have been raised ie. KJs, A9, etc. That said, flop comes:
A /images/graemlins/club.gifA /images/graemlins/diamond.gif3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif
I bet, he calls, turn:
8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif
Again I bet, he just calls, river:
9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif
I bet, he raises??
My read on this guy suggested that he could have a wide range of hands, ranging from middle pairs to any A. At this point I really don't like folding at all but I start to ponder a three-bet thinking he may have AT, AJ, or AQ. What is my best play against this river raise?

[silly_monkey]

[ QUOTE ]
Live 4/8, I am in the small blind with A /images/graemlins/heart.gifK /images/graemlins/club.gif, the table folds around to the button who limps in, I raise, the big blind folds and the button calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

Man, where did you find a live 4/8 game that was folded to the button?!?! My local game is usually at least 5 handed at this point.

As for the river raise, given your read of the villan as very, very passive I think you just call here. I usually get a bad feeling when a passive player suddenly wakes up and raises/bets into me. That said if you 3-bet here are you prepared to fold to cap? If not then I think you just call.

[Spartan1983]

Call the raise, he probably has a boat.

[onegymrat]

Hi dog,
[ QUOTE ]
He had limped on the button in similar instances 3 or 4 times earlier in this session and showed down hands that probably should have been raised ie. KJs, A9, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]With this exact description given, it seems that you are trying to give the impression that he wouldn't raise without a monster hand, perhaps not even with 33, 88 or 99. In this specific case, a call is the best play.

In all other circumstances, I would three-bet for sure and call a four-bet. Most people would have popped you by the turn should they have the case ace, and then it's just a matter of kicker. If they have A3, A8, or A9, good for them. I'm reraising.

In a 4-8 game against what you describe as a very passive player you are beat in this spot. There is no shame in folding if you know you are beat. He called your pre-flop raise, called that flop, called the turn and then raised the river. He sees the aces. He sees your aggression. If a very passive player, one who almost never raises and never makes a play for the pot, raises you here you are beat, plain and simple.

Fold.

[mikeyvegas]

[ QUOTE ]
In a 4-8 game against what you describe as a very passive player you are beat in this spot. There is no shame in folding if you know you are beat. He called your pre-flop raise, called that flop, called the turn and then raised the river. He sees the aces. He sees your aggression. If a very passive player, one who almost never raises and never makes a play for the pot, raises you here you are beat, plain and simple.

Fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not good advice.

[mikeyvegas]

[ QUOTE ]
Live 4/8, I am in the small blind with A /images/graemlins/heart.gifK /images/graemlins/club.gif, the table folds around to the button who limps in, I raise, the big blind folds and the button calls. Heads up to the flop. Let me give details for this player before I go further. I had played with this player several times before and he was pretty loose and very passive. He had limped on the button in similar instances 3 or 4 times earlier in this session and showed down hands that probably should have been raised ie. KJs, A9, etc. That said, flop comes:
A /images/graemlins/club.gifA /images/graemlins/diamond.gif3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif
I bet, he calls, turn:
8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif
Again I bet, he just calls, river:
9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif
I bet, he raises??
My read on this guy suggested that he could have a wide range of hands, ranging from middle pairs to any A. At this point I really don't like folding at all but I start to ponder a three-bet thinking he may have AT, AJ, or AQ. What is my best play against this river raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

Just call.

i'm at least calling in this spot, to fold to one raise with trip A, top kicker seems real passive to me....

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In a 4-8 game against what you describe as a very passive player you are beat in this spot. There is no shame in folding if you know you are beat. He called your pre-flop raise, called that flop, called the turn and then raised the river. He sees the aces. He sees your aggression. If a very passive player, one who almost never raises and never makes a play for the pot, raises you here you are beat, plain and simple.

Fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not good advice.

[/ QUOTE ]

I expected that sort of reply. I know it's tough to fold here and that all sorts of justifications for calling can be laid out but my advice was based on his description of the other player. If he had gone further, if he had said that he had almost never seen this player raise, would you still call his raise? Not me. Anybody who has played the loose lower limit b&m games knows this type of player and knows that he *never* makes a move. The OP said very passive. If he wants to say he isn't quite THAT passive it's a different story, otherwise:

Fold.

[mikeyvegas]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In a 4-8 game against what you describe as a very passive player you are beat in this spot. There is no shame in folding if you know you are beat. He called your pre-flop raise, called that flop, called the turn and then raised the river. He sees the aces. He sees your aggression. If a very passive player, one who almost never raises and never makes a play for the pot, raises you here you are beat, plain and simple.

Fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not good advice.

[/ QUOTE ]

I expected that sort of reply. I know it's tough to fold here and that all sorts of justifications for calling can be laid out but my advice was based on his description of the other player. If he had gone further, if he had said that he had almost never seen this player raise, would you still call his raise? Not me. Anybody who has played the loose lower limit b&m games knows this type of player and knows that he *never* makes a move. The OP said very passive. If he wants to say he isn't quite THAT passive it's a different story, otherwise:

Fold.

[/ QUOTE ]


You don't make money in limit hold'em by laying down trips, top kicker in a heads up pot for one bet on the river. Seriously, you'll be shown AK, AQ, AJ, A10, A... enough times to justify this river call. I could even see a 3 bet being justified if you're willing to laydown to a 4 bet. But folding just isn't an option here.

[silkyslim]

[ QUOTE ]
In a 4-8 game against what you describe as a very passive player you are beat in this spot. There is no shame in folding if you know you are beat. He called your pre-flop raise, called that flop, called the turn and then raised the river. He sees the aces. He sees your aggression. If a very passive player, one who almost never raises and never makes a play for the pot, raises you here you are beat, plain and simple.

Fold.

[/ QUOTE ]
HeeHaw. Dude please dont listen to this guy unless I'm the one raising your river with the 2nd best hand.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In a 4-8 game against what you describe as a very passive player you are beat in this spot. There is no shame in folding if you know you are beat. He called your pre-flop raise, called that flop, called the turn and then raised the river. He sees the aces. He sees your aggression. If a very passive player, one who almost never raises and never makes a play for the pot, raises you here you are beat, plain and simple.

Fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not good advice.

[/ QUOTE ]

I expected that sort of reply. I know it's tough to fold here and that all sorts of justifications for calling can be laid out but my advice was based on his description of the other player. If he had gone further, if he had said that he had almost never seen this player raise, would you still call his raise? Not me. Anybody who has played the loose lower limit b&m games knows this type of player and knows that he *never* makes a move. The OP said very passive. If he wants to say he isn't quite THAT passive it's a different story, otherwise:

Fold.

[/ QUOTE ]


You don't make money in limit hold'em by laying down trips, top kicker in a heads up pot for one bet on the river. Seriously, you'll be shown AK, AQ, AJ, A10, A... enough times to justify this river call. I could even see a 3 bet being justified if you're willing to laydown to a 4 bet. But folding just isn't an option here.

[/ QUOTE ]

You make money in poker by making good decisions. I think there's $68 in the pot when the button raised. A call has to be right once out of nine times, I think, to make a small profit on the play (8 lossesx8=$64 and one win of $68). If you're *playing the player* here I don't think you'll do that well in this spot.

But, ok, I'm not here to upset any apple carts. I just want to point something out. My points are that it's ok to fold when you know you're beat and that it's important to know the other players, that's all.

GL, all.

[mikeyvegas]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In a 4-8 game against what you describe as a very passive player you are beat in this spot. There is no shame in folding if you know you are beat. He called your pre-flop raise, called that flop, called the turn and then raised the river. He sees the aces. He sees your aggression. If a very passive player, one who almost never raises and never makes a play for the pot, raises you here you are beat, plain and simple.

Fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not good advice.

[/ QUOTE ]

I expected that sort of reply. I know it's tough to fold here and that all sorts of justifications for calling can be laid out but my advice was based on his description of the other player. If he had gone further, if he had said that he had almost never seen this player raise, would you still call his raise? Not me. Anybody who has played the loose lower limit b&m games knows this type of player and knows that he *never* makes a move. The OP said very passive. If he wants to say he isn't quite THAT passive it's a different story, otherwise:

Fold.

[/ QUOTE ]


You don't make money in limit hold'em by laying down trips, top kicker in a heads up pot for one bet on the river. Seriously, you'll be shown AK, AQ, AJ, A10, A... enough times to justify this river call. I could even see a 3 bet being justified if you're willing to laydown to a 4 bet. But folding just isn't an option here.

[/ QUOTE ]

You make money in poker by making good decisions. I think there's $68 in the pot when the button raised. A call has to be right once out of nine times, I think, to make a small profit on the play (8 lossesx8=$64 and one win of $68). If you're *playing the player* here I don't think you'll do that well in this spot.

But, ok, I'm not here to upset any apple carts. I just want to point something out. My points are that it's ok to fold when you know you're beat and that it's important to know the other players, that's all.

GL, all.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey man, don't sweat it. We all have our own style. I'm not against hand reading, but in this hand I just don't think we're giving enough info to laydown such a strong holding. I guess it's kind of hard for me to make this judgment since I wasn't at the table. I've just played with with people who are similar to what OP described and I've seen them make this value play thinking you have to have KK or QQ since they have trip A's. That's why when I read this hand I thought it was an easy call.

[damaniac]

I don't think a strong enough read is given to justify folding. We need to be good like 8.5:1, I think absent a super specific "he never raises less than a full house over 500 hands", he'll still be willing to raise trip aces worse kicker enough. I realize that just calling b/c you have a good hand is no answer, but passive players will still raise trip aces here fairly often.

[SackUp]

Most passive players will wait until the river to raise their good hands b/c it is the least contested street.

This guy has Ax other than A9 or A8 or A3 a ton of times here.

3bet his crap kicker. Also, he is not going to cap if he really is that passive. Get your extra bet and be happy.