a hand i disliked-QQ BB

[thejameser]

party 2/4.

at work so i have no hand history, but i was new to this table so i had no reads.

2 limps to CO who raises, button cold calls, sb folds, i 3 bet Q /images/graemlins/heart.gifQ /images/graemlins/club.gif from the BB. all call.

Flop: Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif10 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

I check, intending to raise CO's bet(99% of the time i lead out here, i don't know what came over me; first street of the hand i hate). MP bets(damn), 3 calls to me so i change my plan and only call(anyone still like a raise?).

Turn: K /images/graemlins/club.gif

I bet, MP raises, CO calls, I call because i cannot fold to a cap.

River: 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

I check, MP bets, CO calls, I overcall.

Please, I deserve it. Don't hold back. I hate alot about this hand. What do you hate? I would love to know.

[BIGRED]

I would bet out, hoping to start a raise fest that will drive out or charge a high price for any diamonds and straight draws.

You wanted to CR the flop but you had too many callers so you just called hoping for a safe turn, but when the K hit the turn, you bet out, which is not consistent with your plan when you didn't raised the flop. You betting out on the turn is what I hate the most about the way you played it.

I call the river, but what are the chances that a J isn't out there?

[silly_monkey]

[ QUOTE ]

I check, intending to raise CO's bet(99% of the time i lead out here, i don't know what came over me; first street of the hand i hate). MP bets(damn), 3 calls to me so i change my plan and only call(anyone still like a raise?).


[/ QUOTE ]

First off, I'm pretty new to these forums, so if anything I say here is wrong please tell me why and don't flame me... also take this advice with a grain of salt from a n00b trying to get better.

*grunch*

Why not raise? Your equity here is huge. There is obviously the possibility of a made flush or made straight here, and certainly straight and flush draws, but you have the best hand right now more often than not. Also, you have 7 outs to fill up on the turn, and 10 outs to fill up on the river. You can expect to win this pot more than 1 time 5 so go ahead and raise for value.

Why would you lead out on the turn? I think you a behind now for sure. Your bet looks like either a made flush or straight. Neither MP or CO seems particularly frightended here. Also, MP's raise will likely blow away the rest of the field. Why make things more expensive for your now drawing hand? I would C/C and hope to pick up as many people as possible.

I think the river is a tough call. MP has shown agression from the flop. CO cold called the turn and called on the river. I think you are hooped here. That being said you _might_ call because of the giant pot. CO calling before you complicates things though. I'd like to say that I would fold here, but I'm not sure I could.

[W. Deranged]

Bet the flop for value. Once it's bet in middle position, you should still go through with your check-raise for value purposes, in my opinion. The board is so draw heavy you're going to have a hard time protecting anyway, so why not get as much money in now when you can be pretty confident you've got an equity edge.

[silly_monkey]

[ QUOTE ]
I would bet out, hoping to start a raise fest that will drive out or charge a high price for any diamonds and straight draws.


[/ QUOTE ]

You can't charge the flush/straight draws here. Well maybe the gutshot draws, but OESD and especially flush draws should be happy to get it capped here five handed. You want to jam the pot, but not to charge the draws. You can't make a flush draw fold here, and you can't make it wrong for him to call. You should however want to jam the pot because you have more than your share of equity.

Edited: well OK, the straight draws don't feel good if this is capped.

[ QUOTE ]
I check, intending to raise CO's bet

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this was your mistake. You don't really have a reason to expect the CO to bet. You 3-bet preflop, and this is a scary board. It would also be terrible to give a free card here. You gotta bet this.

[W. Deranged]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I check, intending to raise CO's bet

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this was your mistake. You don't really have a reason to expect the CO to bet. You 3-bet preflop, and this is a scary board. It would also be terrible to give a free card here. You gotta bet this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.

It is very important to realize that the combination of factors:

1. You three-bet pre-flop and didn't get capped.
2. The board is about as scary with draws as possible.

Means that it's very, very difficult to assume that a bet is coming from any one specific place.

Since you can't assume that you'll be able to manipulate the pot by raising a specific bettor, and because the board is crazy and you'll get action, and because you have a big hand, just bet.

[QTip]

I didn't know you knew how to start a thread anymore. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Steelers suck.

Anyway. I don't think this is all that bad outside of not throwing in chips on the flop with both hands.

The overcall on the river stings, and you're probably not good often enough...but...you know...

[MattiasL]

Ok, here's my $0.02

[ QUOTE ]

Flop: Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif10 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
I check, intending to raise CO's bet(99% of the time i lead out here, i don't know what came over me; first street of the hand i hate).


[/ QUOTE ]
Bet. Your hand is strong, and giving a free card would be horrendous.

[ QUOTE ]

MP bets(damn), 3 calls to me so i change my plan and only call(anyone still like a raise?).


[/ QUOTE ]
Raise. You have very little fold equity, but you may still be ahead. And when you are behind, raising on your boat draw has good value with this many opponents.

[ QUOTE ]

Turn: K /images/graemlins/club.gif
I bet, MP raises, CO calls, I call because i cannot fold to a cap.


[/ QUOTE ]
I wouldnt bet. You have no fold equity against any flush draws and you are almost certainly behind to at least a straight already. Also - the flop aggressor is on your left and may raise out a number of opponents. I would keep people in to get good value for the boat draw. Admittedly, if noone has a flush or straight yet this is a large mistake, but I think the chance of that is very small. With up to ten boat outs there is no way whatsoever that you can fold on the turn.

[ QUOTE ]

River: 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif
I check, MP bets, CO calls, I overcall.


[/ QUOTE ]
You probably have the third best hand. But I would have a hard time folding this huge pot against unknown 2/4 players.

[ QUOTE ]

Please, I deserve it. Don't hold back. I hate alot about this hand. What do you hate? I would love to know.

[/ QUOTE ]
I really only hate the flop check/call.

[ZenMusician]

[ QUOTE ]
Since you can't assume that you'll be able to manipulate the pot by raising a specific bettor, and because the board is crazy and you'll get action, and because you have a big hand, just bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

This seems to contradict the "When the pot gets very large" section of
SSHE...care to elaborate your reason to "jam it anyway"?

-ZEN

[jskills]

Aside form not leading out on the flop, which I believe is a must given the texture of the board ...

You spent 2 bets to find out your flopped set of queens were beaten by a monotone flop with a gut shot coming on the turn. Don't beat yourself up too much.

I think you could fold on the river instead of overcalling, but it's hard to fault the call.

Does it really matter where the flop bet comes from? I fell like you still need to go through with your flop CR. Too many people will bet the A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif here. Granted you may already be behind to flush or straight but we need to define your position here.

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Since you can't assume that you'll be able to manipulate the pot by raising a specific bettor, and because the board is crazy and you'll get action, and because you have a big hand, just bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

This seems to contradict the "When the pot gets very large" section of
SSHE...care to elaborate your reason to "jam it anyway"?

-ZEN

[/ QUOTE ]

With a bettor and 3 callers, this can be jammed for value even if someone turns over the nut flush.

Example:

Board: Qd Td 9d
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 32.5236 % 32.52% 00.00% { QcQh }
Hand 2: 61.5385 % 61.54% 00.00% { Ad6d }
Hand 3: 05.8030 % 05.80% 00.00% { KdKh }
Hand 4: 00.0000 % 00.00% 00.00% { Jh8h }
Hand 5: 00.1350 % 00.13% 00.00% { KsTs }

Just betting out the flop obviously changes the entire dynamic of this hand a lot. I would just bet out initially on the flop intending to 3 bet myself if I get a chance, but probably just calling a 3 bet. I would come out firing on the turn after that, or checkraise if my relative position was good if I got 3 bet on the flop.

Damn that is an ugly turn and river. I can't make myself hit the fold button though -- I'm not that good. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif For closing the action is a big pot it might not be a HUGE mistake though.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I check, intending to raise CO's bet

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this was your mistake. You don't really have a reason to expect the CO to bet. You 3-bet preflop, and this is a scary board. It would also be terrible to give a free card here. You gotta bet this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.

It is very important to realize that the combination of factors:

1. You three-bet pre-flop and didn't get capped.
2. The board is about as scary with draws as possible.

Means that it's very, very difficult to assume that a bet is coming from any one specific place.

Since you can't assume that you'll be able to manipulate the pot by raising a specific bettor, and because the board is crazy and you'll get action, and because you have a big hand, just bet.

[/ QUOTE ]
Totally. someone will be megastoked to get a free card here. I think letting them have that chance, however small, is a mistake is a big pot like this one.

[thejameser]

i absolutely hated my flop play here. i have no idea why i did not proceed with a checkraise for value. i have a ton of boat outs with two shots to hit them. this was the worst hand i had played in a while IMO and i felt i needed to be flamed for it. i don't know who said it but i agree: when i failed to go with my normal plan by leading the flop it seemed to cause the rest of the hand to spiral into a nasty mess. for those of you that are results oriented, MP had Kh10h and only by the miracle of the crappiness of 2/4 players, MHIG. and the Steelers don't suck, they just sucked on last Monday night.

[ZenMusician]

Ultra-suede is a miracle, this was just bad timing!

-ZEN

[ErrantNight]

your preflop/flop/turn line makes NO sense, you realize that right?

you can't do ANYTHING about draws on this flop.

NOTHING. remove from your head any "oh, i'll protect from..." because the only "hand" you might "protect" against is an AKo with no diamonds that simply isn't out there.

you must bet/raise this flop until the cows come home. your plan is to charge charge charge until someone tells you "oops, you're toast!" so that when, say, the turn comes around and the board gets scary, and suddenly capt. calls-a-lot wakes up with a raise, you know to stop charging and pair the river.

on the river you have not idea where you stand. so you're stuck overcalling in a huge pot just in case. as opposed to betting because you might be ahead. or folding because you know you're cooked.

ugly.

[ErrantNight]

c/r'ing this flop sucks.

[ErrantNight]

explain how jamming this pot on the flop contradicts that section.


(hint: it doesn't)