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citanul
12-01-2005, 04:05 PM
so last night i played some 109s.

i made a decision early on in the evening. it was to play a bit of ye olde accumulator. specifically, any time i'm in one of these spots where someone pushes for 300 behind a dozen limpers at 15/30 and i'm close to closing the action, i just call with some decent calling hands. these include like, KQ, or 88.

so i made perhaps a dozen calls, some in the line of:

whole bunch of limpers to a shorty who pushes
whole bunch of limpers to me, i raise, and a shorty pushes for 3x or 2x my raise
standard trapping of shorties with big hands by me

i ran in to AK once.

it was by far the best hand i saw.

i saw 98o
i saw Q4o
i saw K3s
i saw Q9o
etc

amazingly enough, whenever they had Qx i had KQ, whenever they had 22 i had 88, whenever they had Ax i had AQ, etc. it was lots of fun.

what i wanted to tell people, especially people who play a few extra pots early, is that the wackos are out. if you haven't been noticing the wackos, you're missing out. spite call the [censored] out of them. post your spite calls here!

oh, another one of my favorites are these people who push for their "last 400" at 10/15, and when you call with 88 you're ahead by a mile because they "pushed with Ax to try to double up."

c

pooh74
12-01-2005, 04:14 PM
[ QUOTE ]
so last night i played some 109s.

i made a decision early on in the evening. it was to play a bit of ye olde accumulator. specifically, any time i'm in one of these spots where someone pushes for 300 behind a dozen limpers at 15/30 and i'm close to closing the action, i just call with some decent calling hands. these include like, KQ, or 88.

so i made perhaps a dozen calls, some in the line of:

whole bunch of limpers to a shorty who pushes
whole bunch of limpers to me, i raise, and a shorty pushes for 3x or 2x my raise
standard trapping of shorties with big hands by me

i ran in to AK once.

it was by far the best hand i saw.

i saw 98o
i saw Q4o
i saw K3s
i saw Q9o
etc

amazingly enough, whenever they had Qx i had KQ, whenever they had 22 i had 88, whenever they had Ax i had AQ, etc. it was lots of fun.

what i wanted to tell people, especially people who play a few extra pots early, is that the wackos are out. if you haven't been noticing the wackos, you're missing out. spite call the [censored] out of them. post your spite calls here!

oh, another one of my favorites are these people who push for their "last 400" at 10/15, and when you call with 88 you're ahead by a mile because they "pushed with Ax to try to double up."

c

[/ QUOTE ]

yep...pretty standard. Just wanted to point out that they arent as "wacko" as they seem. Especially when they are on the short side and 3 or 4 limpers come in. It stands to reason that the first limper will have the best hand in their mind, and, at the same time, will have the most difficulty calling the shorty's push because of the other limpers yet to act. At the same time, the shorty will assume that the "last limper in" will typically have one of the weaker hands of the group, and though hypothetically closing the action if the first three limpers fold to the shorty's push, will have trouble calling because they only limped because of the umbrella effect.

This is why I like limping hands like AQ, 88 etc after a few limpers in midgame when there is a shorty in the blinds. Instead of raising myself, I get many opps to call a short push with some dead money to soften the blow. And like you said, I will often be miles ahead as well.

12-01-2005, 04:14 PM
really? i'd be interested to see the actual HH

citanul
12-01-2005, 04:16 PM
[ QUOTE ]
really? i'd be interested to see the actual HH

[/ QUOTE ]

the actual hand history of what?

if you want, next time i play i can try to save some of them. but it's not like i'm going to paste the raw text.

c

citanul
12-01-2005, 04:17 PM
[ QUOTE ]
This is why I like limping hands like AQ, 88 etc after a few limpers in midgame when there is a shorty in the blinds. Instead of raising myself, I get many opps to call a short push with some dead money to soften the blow. And like you said, I will often be miles ahead as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, i get an extra special glee out of knowing that i've limped a hand "too big" for the last limper and sitting there waiting to get to hit the call button.

what really shocked me was the people pushing over a raise, not just pushing over limpers. they blew my mind.

c

pooh74
12-01-2005, 04:33 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is why I like limping hands like AQ, 88 etc after a few limpers in midgame when there is a shorty in the blinds. Instead of raising myself, I get many opps to call a short push with some dead money to soften the blow. And like you said, I will often be miles ahead as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, i get an extra special glee out of knowing that i've limped a hand "too big" for the last limper and sitting there waiting to get to hit the call button.

what really shocked me was the people pushing over a raise, not just pushing over limpers. they blew my mind.

c

[/ QUOTE ]

I think a very big distinction between a good player and a noob is being able to guage fold equity correctly. I remember playing like this myself (and hey, I still muff up a push from time to time). Not knowing where to pick you spots, giving up, when youre low on chips is a very big leak.

microbet
12-01-2005, 04:34 PM
I'd complain about this post, but if someone tries this to me, I'll most often have them beat.

durron597
12-01-2005, 04:36 PM
I make a huge % of my chips pre-bubble by calling idiot shorstacks with hands like A8o and KQ and 77.

citanul
12-01-2005, 04:40 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I'd complain about this post, but if someone tries this to me, I'll most often have them beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

well of course there's an element of fun to a post like this one.

you're allowed to advertize here that you're a tag in such spots, but we all know you're a lag at heart, easilly called with QJo.

i think that yeah, there's a big different between a good player and an idiot, who make very similar plays.

c

durron597
12-01-2005, 04:52 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I make a huge % of my chips pre-bubble by calling idiot shorstacks with hands like A8o and KQ and 77.

[/ QUOTE ]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t150 (6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

MP (t3590)
CO (t1170)
Button (t3980)
SB (t760)
Hero (t2545)
UTG (t1455)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to t1170</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls t1020.

Flop: (t2415) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Turn: (t2415) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

River: (t2415) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Final Pot: t2415

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
CO has 6c Ad (one pair, jacks).
Hero has Ac 8c (two pair, jacks and eights).
Outcome: Hero wins t2415. </font>

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Hero (t2690)
UTG (t3315)
MP (t3310)
Button (t910)
SB (t3275)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to t910</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls t710.

Flop: (t1920) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Turn: (t1920) K/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

River: (t1920) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Final Pot: t1920

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
Hero has 9c Ad (one pair, kings).
Button has 6c Jd (one pair, kings).
Outcome: Hero wins t1920. </font>

tigerite
12-01-2005, 04:54 PM
t1170 isn't really that short at 75/150. That's a borderline one at best - it absolutely shafts your stack if you lose.

The second one is a clear call, not least because he's a) shorter and b) effects your stack less..

durron597
12-01-2005, 04:55 PM
[ QUOTE ]
t1170 isn't really that short at 75/150. That's a borderline one at best - it absolutely shafts your stack if you lose.

The second one is a clear call, not least because he's a) shorter and b) effects your stack less..

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't remember what reads I had at the time, but I probably don't make either of these calls completely readless.

tigerite
12-01-2005, 04:59 PM
That's fair enough.. a CO push is often a steal, but a decent player shouldnt be pushing down to A6o here I think, so it'd be a strange type to call here (which obviously he was - something like a LAG or a TAG who doesn't quite get ICM, or whatever)

citanul
12-01-2005, 05:05 PM
[ QUOTE ]
That's fair enough.. a CO push is often a steal, but a decent player shouldnt be pushing down to A6o here I think, so it'd be a strange type to call here (which obviously he was - something like a LAG or a TAG who doesn't quite get ICM, or whatever)

[/ QUOTE ]

he shouldn't? can someone run that? make some assumptions, one tight calling range, and then one where everyone behind him calls with exactly the hands that are ahead of A6, and maybe KQ thrown in for kicks.

Newt_Buggs
12-01-2005, 05:08 PM
Folding the second one would be a very bad fold. If my opponent is so bad as to be pushing a range tight enough to make this a bad call then I'm just going to have to pay him off.

The second is closer, but against decent opponents i'm calling more often then not.

12-01-2005, 05:11 PM
What do you do if you're the CO w/A-6 offsuit? Muck it? Limp?

durron597
12-01-2005, 05:14 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Folding the second one would be a very bad fold. If my opponent is so bad as to be pushing a range tight enough to make this a bad call then I'm just going to have to pay him off.

The second is closer, but against decent opponents i'm calling more often then not.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are players at the 60s who are this tight. Granted, I'm calling 95% or more of opponents.

Newt_Buggs
12-01-2005, 05:25 PM
Okay, I just plugged it into SNGPT and he needs to be folding things like A8o before this is a bad call (86% of hands). There are very, very few poker players that are trying to win who are going to fold A8o on the button with 4.5 big blinds.

citanul
12-01-2005, 05:38 PM
can you run that other hand, the one where the guy pushes 1100 instead of the 900 one, and check out my other question?

c

Newt_Buggs
12-01-2005, 05:59 PM
Can you take my econometrics final that's coming up for me?

wtf, you guys can't do this for yourselves? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

bjb23
12-01-2005, 06:01 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That's fair enough.. a CO push is often a steal, but a decent player shouldnt be pushing down to A6o here I think, so it'd be a strange type to call here (which obviously he was - something like a LAG or a TAG who doesn't quite get ICM, or whatever)

[/ QUOTE ]

he shouldn't? can someone run that? make some assumptions, one tight calling range, and then one where everyone behind him calls with exactly the hands that are ahead of A6, and maybe KQ thrown in for kicks.

[/ QUOTE ]

ok with a range of 44+,A7s+,A7o+,KQs, KQo for all three behind, it is exactly ev neutral (lol, at least to the tenths place) and desired pushing range would be 55+,ATo+,A9s+ .

for all tighties behind (TT+,AQs+,AKo) which is obviously much too tight it is +1.1%. with a desired pushing range of any two.

for average callers(66+,ATs+,AJo+ ,obviously too tight again), it is +0.5% with a desired range of Push hands: 22+,A3o+,A2s+,K7o+,K2s+,Q8o+,Q3s+,J8o+,J6s+,T8o+,T 6s+,98o,96s+,86s+,76s (44%)

citanul
12-01-2005, 06:01 PM
i'm not in the same city as my computer, nor with your exam.

lame-o

citanul
12-01-2005, 06:02 PM
what if we make his calling range what i asked about /images/graemlins/smile.gif

pushing exactly the hand he did. is that +ev?

bjb23
12-01-2005, 06:06 PM
[ QUOTE ]
what if we make his calling range what i asked about

pushing exactly the hand he did. is that +ev?

[/ QUOTE ]

you asked for hands that beat a6o no? i assume that 44 beats a6 sorta kinda?


ok with a range of 44+,A7s+,A7o+,KQs, KQo for all three behind, it is exactly ev neutral (lol, at least to the tenths place) and desired pushing range would be 55+,ATo+,A9s+ .

so you want a diferent range than the one above?

i hope were talking about the same hand... /images/graemlins/smile.gif

bjb23
12-01-2005, 06:09 PM
ok maybe i got you all wrong. you said "
make some assumptions, one tight calling range, and then one where everyone behind him calls with exactly the hands that are ahead of A6, and maybe KQ thrown in for kicks."

did you mean that have one person behind with a tight range and the other two with ranges that beat a6o or did you want me to run it twice with each person having the same calling range as i did previously?
/images/graemlins/confused.gif

edit: ok, apparently i suck at this game. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

golfcchs
12-01-2005, 07:11 PM
Do you think this would apply as much to low buyin sng's? I assume yes because there will be more donks, but just want to make sure.

tewall
12-01-2005, 07:48 PM
Hmmm. I'm getting basically EV neutral with either range; the tight range being top 10% of hands.

I would have thought A6o would be +EV here.

citanul
12-01-2005, 08:15 PM
my bad, i misread originally and htought you had put the pusher on a range instead of putting him on exactly one hand. why, i don't know. thanks for the data. i was afraid as well, i push A6o every time in that spot i believe, as well as worse and better hands.

c

tewall
12-01-2005, 08:26 PM
I redid the calculations and got more reasonable results. EV neutral if called by loose range; +EV with tight raiser by a lot with CEV going from .1 to .15. That makes a lot more sense.

So A6o is an easy push, and A8s is a very thin call at best.

good2cu
12-01-2005, 08:30 PM
Yea calling in this spot with A8, is pretty terrible, even againest agressive players.

microbet
12-01-2005, 08:47 PM
I've never really done this analysis myself (I'm such a n00b), so maybe someone who has like not let their brain atrophy for 15 years can check see if I'm right. Sorry, can't really show work on this one.

I just assumed Button will call with 66+, ATs+, AJo+ and SB will call with 22+, A2s+, A3o+, KTs+, KJo+, QJs and then, the question is, what will CO push with and BB call with if they are both Game Theory experts.

I got:

CO pushes 22+, A3o+, A2s+, KTo, K9s, QJo, Q9s, JTo, J8s+, T8x+, 98s

BB calls 33+, A6o+, A2s+, KJo, KTs+, QJs

golfcchs
12-01-2005, 08:52 PM
These are both 22's. Are any of these hands the type of hands you are advocating a call in?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Hero (t620)
CO (t680)
Button (t1065)
SB (t640)
BB (t330)
UTG (t1710)
UTG+1 (t1510)
MP1 (t1445)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t150</font>, CO reraises all in t680, Button calls t680, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Hero fold.

Flop: (t905) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Turn: (t905) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

River: (t905) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Final Pot: t905

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
CO has Kh As (high card, ace).
Button has Jd Ac (high card, ace).
Outcome: CO wins t905. </font>

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Hero (t1560)
SB (t870)
BB (t1720)
UTG (t1185)
MP (t1275)
CO (t1390)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t150</font>, SB raises all in t870, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls t720.

Flop: (t945) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Turn: (t945) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

River: (t945) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Final Pot: t945

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
SB has Qc Ah (high card, ace).
Hero has 7d 7h (three of a kind, sevens).
Outcome: Hero wins t945. </font>

On this hand SB said, "fold, don't steal" When I replied that I had 77 and he did not say anything I took it to mean I was a 50/50 at worse.

12-01-2005, 09:04 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I've never really done this analysis myself (I'm such a n00b), so maybe someone who has like not let their brain atrophy for 15 years can check see if I'm right. Sorry, can't really show work on this one.

I just assumed Button will call with 66+, ATs+, AJo+ and SB will call with 22+, A2s+, A3o+, KTs+, KJo+, QJs and then, the question is, what will CO push with and BB call with if they are both Game Theory experts.

I got:

CO pushes 22+, A3o+, A2s+, KTo, K9s, QJo, Q9s, JTo, J8s+, T8x+, 98s

BB calls 33+, A6o+, A2s+, KJo, KTs+, QJs

[/ QUOTE ]It's a bit hard to follow which hands we're talking about, but assuming it's Durron's first hand, given these calling ranges, CO's break even pushing range is (so SNGPT says): 22+,A5o+,A2s+,KJo+,KTs+,QTs+,J9s+,T9s. That's just break even: minimum edge = 0.0%

tigerite
12-01-2005, 09:10 PM
I thought A6o was close, but oh well, people never believe me. And that was without doing any calcs as well.

From the button it's a push, for sure.

citanul
12-01-2005, 09:13 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I thought A6o was close, but oh well, people never believe me. And that was without doing any calcs as well.

From the button it's a push, for sure.

[/ QUOTE ]

to be fair, what you said wasn't "i think it's close"

what you said was:

[ QUOTE ]
That's fair enough.. a CO push is often a steal, but a decent player shouldnt be pushing down to A6o here I think, so it'd be a strange type to call here (which obviously he was - something like a LAG or a TAG who doesn't quite get ICM, or whatever)

[/ QUOTE ]

well, it's close, if you make all the players behind call with exactly the hands they should call with if the cards are face up and they don't have to worry about players behind them.

it's not close if you don't give them such ridiculous super powers. the range implied by knowing the cards is way, way too wide to be calling pushes with otherwise. consequently, yes, a good player should be pushing the A6o, i think.

c

microbet
12-01-2005, 09:23 PM
That's simular, as we say back in Indiana, but not exactly the same. I set the min. edge to zero also. There is some other setting about discounting the blinds or something, but maybe my version doesn't have that. Mine is v1.18b.

The question though is about solving for both ranges at the same time. BB's calling range is not an assumption. The idea is to find the Nash equilibrium. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nash_equilibrium) Disclaimer: At best, I just barely have a clue what the hell I'm talking about.

45suited
12-01-2005, 09:49 PM
Citanul, I think your idea was brilliant. This can be especially useful in an MTT, where more time is available to observe. I played one the other night where I limped with JJ on the button after 4 other limpers with the strong belief that one of the blinds would push, based upon their play up to that point. Hand shown down: T6o. Good job.

I have been limping with good hands after limpers if I think that there are aggressive players in the blinds who are likely to pull a PVS. As the herd gets more creative, so should we.

kamelion44
12-01-2005, 09:51 PM
I tried that a few times at the 200s, and all 4 times they had AA...when you're running bad???

12-01-2005, 11:35 PM
[ QUOTE ]
That's simular, as we say back in Indiana, but not exactly the same. I set the min. edge to zero also. There is some other setting about discounting the blinds or something, but maybe my version doesn't have that. Mine is v1.18b.

The question though is about solving for both ranges at the same time. BB's calling range is not an assumption. The idea is to find the Nash equilibrium. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nash_equilibrium) Disclaimer: At best, I just barely have a clue what the hell I'm talking about.

[/ QUOTE ]
I understand BB's range isn't a given. But, if you think you've reached an equilibrium, you ought to be able to get CO's pushing range by plugging in BB's derived calling range.

Yes, it would be cool if SNGPT would determine the equilibrium for us. I've spent lots of time with trial and error trying to find the equilibriums (not for this problem). I think it's a worthwhile exercise, even if it is time consuming, because the answers aren't always what you (at least what I) expect from the initial runs.

I don't understand quite what is going on with blind discounting. If you could explain it to me, I would be grateful.

golfcchs
12-02-2005, 01:11 AM
Just wondering?

12-06-2005, 03:02 AM
[ QUOTE ]

I think a very big distinction between a good player and a noob is being able to guage fold equity correctly. I remember playing like this myself (and hey, I still muff up a push from time to time). Not knowing where to pick you spots, giving up, when youre low on chips is a very big leak.

[/ QUOTE ]

While I'm not that good of a player, I'd like to add that I would guess that on top of gauging fold equity, part of it is being able to figure out whether or not the other players are good enough to understand fold equity. They might make an incorrect call even though you do have fold equity or make an incorrect fold even though your push might be 4x bb over 4 limpers. Not everyone understands that pot odds of over 2:1 makes calling with a lot of marginal hands the correct action.

Will

12-06-2005, 03:11 AM
I don't know for sure, but I'm guessing good players push worse hands than bad players. Short stacked good players know they have to push; bad ones let themselves be blinded away waiting for good hands.

Will

citanul
12-06-2005, 03:16 AM
scratch all of this [censored]. i'm like 0 for 100 with Ax v junk in the last 3 days out of the blinds.

clearly this strategy is inferior.

i have 0 of 1 such posts remaining. [censored].

c

12-06-2005, 03:34 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I think a very big distinction between a good player and a noob is being able to guage fold equity correctly. I remember playing like this myself (and hey, I still muff up a push from time to time). Not knowing where to pick you spots, giving up, when youre low on chips is a very big leak.

[/ QUOTE ]

While I'm not that good of a player, I'd like to add that I would guess that on top of gauging fold equity, part of it is being able to figure out whether or not the other players are good enough to understand fold equity. They might make an incorrect call even though you do have fold equity or make an incorrect fold even though your push might be 4x bb over 4 limpers. Not everyone understands that pot odds of over 2:1 makes calling with a lot of marginal hands the correct action.

Will

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. My favorite note on a player is "folds to great odds preflop".